Teachers as learning designers: using design thinking to innovate and enhance learning experience
1. TEACHERS AS
LEARNING DESIGNERS
using design thinking to innovate
and enhance student experience
Rikke Toft Noergaard
Associate Professor,
PhD
Centre for Teaching
Development and
Digital Media,
Aarhus University
rtoft@tdm.au.dk
2. TEACHERS AS LEARNING DESIGNERS
1. WHY: THE WORLD WE TEACH IN
The changing mandate of the university in society
1. HOW: RECONFIGURING TEACHING PRACTICE TO FIT THE WORLD
Design thinking & learning design as teacher’s response
1. WHAT: TEACHING AS INTENTIONAL FUTURE-MAKING
Value-based vision-driven educational design thinking as teacher’s
intentional design practice
1. ROUND-UP & RESOURCES
2
3. THE WORLD WE TEACH IN: THE CHANGING
MANDATE OF THE UNIVERSITY
On the future of teaching: From knowledge
transmission to complex community building
3
1WHY
4. The Mode 1 university (left in the past)
intrinsic academic value & ‘ivory tower for educated life’
▰Teachers’ embody the ivory tower and
shapes students thinking by telling them
what they need to know: Knowledge is stable,
controlled and transmissible = self-sustained
ecosystem with intrinsic value
▰The university is in control of education and
decides what it takes to be educated
▰Institution as a shrine for universal
knowledge - courses are fixed - classrooms
closed - knowledge is not up for discussion
4
5. The Mode 2 university (living the present)
utilitaristic value & ‘factory for the future workforce’
▰Teachers’ embody the factory and produce
students as future workforce. Knowledge is
unstable, uncontrolled but transmissible =
conveyer belt producing demanded skills
▰The society is in control of education and
decides what it takes to be educated
▰Institution as a producer of utilitaristic value
- courses are fixed - classrooms open -
knowledge is not up for discussion 5
6. The Mode 3 university (looking to the future)
societal value & ‘community centre for academic citizenship’
▰Teachers’ embody the community centre and
collaborate and communicate with students and
society about the production of academic citizens.
Knowledge is dialogic, exploratory and
transformational = teaches, students & society co-
create societal value and knowledge.
▰Education emerges as critical-creative
partnerships between institutions, companies,
organisations, , the public, government
▰Institution as creative collaborator & critical co-
creator of societal value - courses are open -
classrooms are open - knowledge is up for 6
7. TODAY
Education faces many challenges in the changing modern world. Learners are changing in their
approaches to education – they use digital technologies, they multi-task, they collaborate and they are
becoming less patient with teacher- centric styles of education.
Educators face many changes – such as expectations of adopting innovative teaching approaches,
alignment of teaching to external standards, growing requirements for professional development and
difficulties in balancing a complex range of demands from different stakeholders.
Educational institutions also face many changes, such as the rise of the knowledge economy and the
need for different kinds of graduates, a shift from knowledge scarcity to abundance, and the impact of
technology – especially the internet via open sharing of educational resources and massive open online
courses (MOOCs).
The Larnaca declaration on Learning Design, 2012
8. TEACHERS ARE ALREADY PRODUCING DESIGNS
THEY ARE JUST NOT LEARNING DESIGNERS
▰ Teachers have always been design practitioners & producers of designs in their
teaching BUT teachers are not necessarily reflective design thinkers or intentional
producers of learning designs
▰ To become learning designers ‘transmission teachers’ need to stop taking teaching
too seriously & start taking teaching seriously (Continued dynamic iterative
development)
▰ For teachers to become learning designers institutions need to establish critical-
creative, exploratory & experimenting collectives that embody and invite for open
courses/classrooms/knowledge (leadership-staff & staff-student partnerships)
8
10. “
LEARNING DESIGN REFERS TO
1) the process of designing the learning activity,
2) the sequencing of the learning activity into patterns,
3) the final learning activity as a product
Value-based vision-driven learning design focuses on creating explicit
& intentional relations between educational values & visions,
pedagogical principles & patterns, learner interactions & experiences
within a course/activity to reconfigure teaching for better learning
experiences
1010
11. “
Adopting a designer mindset means using empathy and observation to
understand where the learners are, and creating the things that will help
them get to where you want them to be (Mor, Craft & Maina, 2015)
1111
Learning design is “the creative and deliberate act of
devising new practices, plans of activity, resources and
tools aimed at achieving particular educational aims in
a given context” (Mor & Craft, 2012)
To become a learning designer is a process of learning
to reflect & intentionally act on experiences in HE
(Kolb)
12. VALUE-BASED VISION-DRIVEN LEARNING DESIGN IS:
▰ Ethically driven & human-centered: value-based to create worthwhile learning experiences
▰ A process by which teachers aim to achieve educational visions in their teaching
▰ Future-making: responding to the changing mandate & iteratively designing its way forward
towards better teaching & learning at the mode 3 university
▰ Shifting teacher focus from content/transmission to process/activity (from noun to verb)
▰ A reflective inquiry informed by theory & a creative practice (learning by designing & reflecting)
▰ Focusing on creating inter-relations between educational value & vision, pedagogical principles &
patterns, learner interaction & experience of a course/activity
12
13. MASTERING THE LAYERED ‘INQUIRY FOR ACTION’
OF EDUCATIONAL DESIGN THINKING
▰ Pedagogical principles & virtues => learner experience (Why)
▰ Pedagogical approach => learner interaction form (How)
▰ Pedagogical patterns => learning process (How)
▰ Pedagogical activities => learner tasks (What)
▰ Pedagogical materials => learning environment (What)
...The ‘why’ should always inform the ‘how’
...The ‘how should always inform the ‘what’
...The ‘what’ should always inform the ‘why’
...And the ‘who’ should always take the center stage
13
14. LEARNING DESIGN REVOLVES AROUND QUESTIONS
IN ORDER TO MOVE FROM THE WHY TO THE WHAT
14
HOW?
PEDAGOGY
What pedagogical
approach do you want
to emphasise?
HOW?
LEARNING ACTIVITIES
& PATTERNS
How do your design
teach and what do the
learner do?
WHY?
LEARNING
EXPERIENCE
What do you want the
students to experience?
WHY?
PROBLEM & VISION
What specific problem
do you want to
address?
15. VALUE-BASED VISION-DRIVEN LEARNING DESIGN
Moving from the why to the what
15
Conceptualise
vision
HOW?
Pedagogical
structure
WHAT?
Look & feel of
design
Identify domain Map values
WHY?
Learners’
experience
Put together
design patterns
Pedagogical
approach
Hand, head and
heart of student
Learning design
to be validated &
evaluated
Content &
actions
Technologies &
materials
16. TEACHING AS INTENTIONAL
FUTURE-MAKING
The example of ‘GO:IT’: reconfiguring
teaching practice through answering design
questions 16
3 WHAT HOW?
Pedagogical
structure
WHAT?
Look & feel of
design
WHY?
Learners’
experience
17. THE LEARNING DESIGN PROCESS
Moving from the why to the what
17
Conceptualise
vision
HOW?
Pedagogical
structure
WHAT?
Look & feel of
design
Identify domain Map values
WHY?
Learners’
experience
Put together
design patterns
Pedagogical
approach
Hand, head and
heart of student
=> New learning
activity to be
validated
Content &
actions
Technologies &
materials
18. 1. Identify existing
activity in domain
Name curriculum,
course, activity
Identify wicked problem:
technological, material,
experiential,
interactional,
contextual...
2. Map values
Envision desired future
experience of and
action in the domain
Map core desired
values of the vision
3. Conceptualise vision in a
sentence
Imagine change in interaction or
experience that make vision come
true
Integrate interaction & values in a
vision-statement that capture
desired change
18
Check for
relationship between
future vision and
present problem
1. WHY? The learners’ experience
(mapping future vision to present problem)
19. THE GO:IT DESIGN EMERGING FROM
QUESTIONS OF: Why => How => What
19
20. 1. Identify existing
activity in domain
Name curriculum,
course, activity
&
Identify wicked problem:
technological, material,
experiential,
interactional, contextual
2. Map values
Envision desired future
experience of and
action in the domain
&
Map core desired
values of the vision
3. Conceptualise vision
Imagine change in interaction or
experience that make vision come
true
&
Integrate interaction & values in a
vision-statement that capture
desired change
20
1. WHY? The learners’ experience
(mapping future vision to present problem)
Check for
relationship between
future vision and
present problem
21. 1. Identify existing
activity in domain
Name curriculum,
course, activity
Identify wicked problem:
technological, material,
experiential,
interactional,
contextual...
2. Map values
Envision desired future
experience of and
action in the domain
Map core desired
values of the vision
3. Conceptualise vision in a
sentence
Imagine change in interaction or
experience that make vision come
true
Integrate interaction & values in a
vision-statement that capture
desired change
21
Check for
relationship between
future vision and
present problem
1. WHY? The learners’ experience
(mapping future vision to present problem)
22. LEARNING DESIGN REVOLVES AROUND QUESTIONS
IN ORDER TO MOVE FROM THE WHY TO THE WHAT
22
WHY?
LEARNING
EXPERIENCE
What do you want the
students to experience?
WHY?
PROBLEM & VISION
What specific problem
do you want to
address?
23. THE LEARNING DESIGN PROCESS
Moving from the why to the what
23
Conceptualise
vision
HOW?
Pedagogical
structure
WHAT?
Look & feel of
design
Identify domain Map values
WHY?
Learners’
experience
Put together
design patterns
Pedagogical
approach
Hand, head and
heart of student
=> New learning
activity to be
validated
Content &
actions
Technologies &
materials
24. 2. HOW? Pedagogical structure
(mapping present problem to future pedagogy)
4. Hand, head & heart of
student
Create the hand, head
and heart of students by
answering what is most
important that the
student experience?
Draw/describe hand,
head & heart of student
5. Pedagogical approach
Select core form of
engagement in the course
/activity that invites for the
wanted learner experience
Check that the general
pedagogical approach
correspond to vision &
form head, hand and heart
6. Design patterns
Divide the course / activity into
patterns that work together to teach
the learner what to do, think and
feel?
Construct sequence of events
(design patterns) that make the
vision materialize?
24
Check for
relationship between
future vision &
pedagogy/patterns
25. 2. HOW? Pedagogical structure
(mapping present problem to future pedagogy)
4. Hand, head & heart of
student
Create the hand, head
and heart of students by
answering what is most
important that the
student experience?
Draw/describe hand,
head & heart of student
5. Pedagogical approach
Select core form of
engagement in the course
/activity that invites for the
wanted learner experience
Check that the general
pedagogical approach
correspond to vision &
form head, hand and heart
6. Design patterns
Divide the course / activity into
patterns that work together to teach
the learner what to do, think and
feel?
Construct sequence of events
(design patterns) that make the
vision materialize?
25
Check for
relationship between
future vision &
pedagogy/patterns
26. 2. HOW? Pedagogical structure
(mapping present problem to future pedagogy)
4. Hand, head & heart of
student
Create the hand, head
and heart of students by
answering what is most
important that the
student experience?
Draw/describe hand,
head & heart of student
5. Pedagogical approach
Select core form of
engagement in the course
/activity that invites for the
wanted learner experience
Check that the general
pedagogical approach
correspond to vision &
form head, hand and heart
6. Design patterns
Divide the course / activity into
patterns that work together to teach
the learner what to do, think and
feel?
Construct sequence of events
(design patterns) that make the
vision materialize?
26
Check for
relationship between
future vision &
pedagogy/patterns
27. LEARNING DESIGN REVOLVES AROUND QUESTIONS
IN ORDER TO MOVE FROM THE WHY TO THE WHAT
27
HOW?
PEDAGOGY
What pedagogical
approach do you want
to emphasise?
HOW?
LEARNING ACTIVITIES
& PATTERNS
How do your design
teach and what do the
learner do?
WHY?
LEARNING
EXPERIENCE
What do you want the
students to experience?
WHY?
PROBLEM & VISION
What specific problem
do you want to
address?
28. THE LEARNING DESIGN PROCESS
Moving from the why to the what
28
Conceptualise
vision
HOW?
Pedagogical
structure
WHAT?
Look & feel of
design
Identify domain Map values
WHY?
Learners’
experience
Put together
design patterns
Pedagogical
approach
Hand, head and
heart of student
=> New learning
activity to be
validated
Content &
actions
Technologies &
materials
29. WHAT? Look & feel of design
(mapping pedagogy to tools & tasks)
7. Technologies &
materials
Decide the technologies
and materials that can
fulfill the pedagogical
approach & patterns
Identify the tools that
shape the hand, head
and heart & realise the
vision
8. Content & actions
List the content of the course
/ activity that should be
taught and learned
Identify the learner’s tasks
and actions in the course /
activity that make learning
happen in alignment with
vision, values and pedagogy
9. Validation & evaluation
Describe how you will validate
that the design fulfill the
values/vision and achieve the
formation of hand, head and
heart
Decide how to evaluate the
learner experience
29
Check for
relationship between
Vision, actions &
validation
30. WHAT? Look & feel of design
(mapping pedagogy to tools & tasks)
7. Technologies &
materials
Decide the technologies
and materials that can
fulfill the pedagogical
approach & patterns
Identify the tools that
shape the hand, head
and heart & realise the
vision
8. Content & actions
List the content of the course
/ activity that should be
taught and learned
Identify the learner’s tasks
and actions in the course /
activity that make learning
happen in alignment with
vision, values and pedagogy
9. Validation & evaluation
Describe how you will validate
that the design fulfill the
values/vision and achieve the
formation of hand, head and
heart
Decide how to evaluate the
learner experience
30
Check for
relationship between
Vision, actions &
validation
31. WHAT? Look & feel of design
(mapping pedagogy to tools & tasks)
7. Technologies &
materials
Decide the technologies
and materials that can
fulfill the pedagogical
approach & patterns
Identify the tools that
shape the hand, head
and heart & realise the
vision
8. Content & actions
List the content of the course
/ activity that should be
taught and learned
Identify the learner’s tasks
and actions in the course /
activity that make learning
happen in alignment with
vision, values and pedagogy
9. Validation & evaluation
Describe how you will validate
that the design fulfill the
values/vision and achieve the
formation of hand, head and
heart
Decide how to evaluate the
learner experience
31
Check for
relationship between
Vision, actions &
validation
32. LEARNING DESIGN REVOLVES AROUND QUESTIONS
IN ORDER TO MOVE FROM THE WHY TO THE WHAT
32
HOW?
PEDAGOGY
What pedagogical
approach do you want to
emphasise?
HOW?
LEARNING ACTIVITIES
& PATTERNS
How do your design
teach and what do the
learner do?
WHY?
LEARNING EXPERIENCE
What do you want the
students to experience?WHY?
PROBLEM & VISION
What specific problem
do you want to
address?
HOW?
Pedagogical
structure
WHAT?
Look & feel of
design
WHY?
Learners’
experience
33. ROUND-UP & RESOURCES
33
4 Rikke Toft Noergaard
Associate Professor,
PhD
Centre for Teaching
Development and
Digital Media,
Aarhus University
rtoft@tdm.au.dk
@RikkeToftN
34. ROUND-UP & RESOURCES
Resources for the WHY
Values:
https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTED
_85.htm
34
Resources for the HOW
Pedagogy:
Connected curriculum: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/ucl-
press/browse-books/a-connected-curriculum-for-
higher-education
Innovating pedagogy 2016:
http://www.open.ac.uk/blogs/innovating/
Resources for the WHAT
Technologies & materials
Make space:
https://dschool.stanford.edu/resources/make-
space-excerpts
Trend report 2016: How tehnological trends
enable customized education:
https://www.surf.nl/binaries/content/assets/surf
HOW?
Pedagogical
structure
WHAT?
Look & feel of
design
WHY?
Learners’
experience
Visions:
https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newLDR_90.htm
Patterns:
Design method toolkit:
http://medialabamsterdam.com/toolkit/
Art & science of learning design:
https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/2398-the-art-
and-science-of_learning-design.pdf
Content & action:
Practical design patterns for teaching & learning with
technology: https://www.sensepublishers.com/media/1937-
practical-design-patterns-for-teaching-and-learning-with-
technology.pdf
Technology enhanced learning - design patterns and pattern
languages:
https://www.sensepublishers.com/catalogs/bookseries/tec
hnology-enhanced-learning-1/technology-enhanced-learning/
Notas do Editor
Hello good morgning - I am very honored to be given the opportunity to speak here at CHED - and a a bit terrified to follow such fine introductions to the future of education - and to give the opening keynote
My name is Rikke Toft Nørgård
Associate professor in educational design & technology at the Centre for Teaching Development and Digital Media, Aarhus university
The last couple of years I have been working with combining the fields of design thinking, signature pedagogy and educational philosophy to develop the field of “value-based vision-driven learning design” as a way to enhance the student experience through a human-centered perspective and by connecting it to the deeper values and visions we hold as teachers and institutions
This fall I will be running value-based vision-driven learning design workshops for the staff at aarhus university, for master students at the ICT-based educational design as well as for learning designers in different research projects that want to work closer with integrating educational values and visions in their learning designs
...and having listened to the very nice introduction - I hope this talk will follow nicely along a lot of the things laid out in the introduction and give some food for thinking and talking together about the future of teaching and learning in a changing society
In this talk I will move from ‘the why’ that is the broader institutional context that teaching today takes place in to ‘the how’ that is the field of design thinking & learning design to ‘the what’ that is how to create and practice learning design in ways that connects with the inner values and visions of education
If anyone interested I know it should be possible to get hold of the slides -
Universities and teachers today find themselves in a new place where they no longer necessarily hold the power over their own faith or control knowledge - they have had to leave their walled university gardens and connect with society - first in ways where society took over the power and control - but recently in ways that are more dialogic and resemble a partnership - this development has sometimes been called the move from the mode 1 to the mode 3 university
At the mode 1 university that we have now left behind teachers were still in control of knowledge and could simply tell students what they needed to know
The university was in control of education and was the one that decieded what knowledge and competencies society needed to have and what it took to be educated
Courses are fixed by the univeristy - classrooms are closed and students inside the walled gardens - the university is in control of what the right learner experience is
At the mode 2 university teachers and universities find themselves in a situation where they have lost control of knowledge and their own fate
Universities and teachers are put to work in the service of society and asked to produce the right students with the right competencies - here the university is a factory for producing the future workforce and teachers are the ones making sure that the factory is running according to plan and future workers are getting produced
Courses are fixed by society - classrooms are open and oriented towards future worklife - the society is in control of what the right learner experience is
At the mode 3 university university & society tries to establish new partnerships where they together co-create societal value and future citizens - they are put in each others service in order to together create a future society not yet known
This also entails new partnerships between university and teachers and teachers and students where they work together with both the public and industry as critical-creative future-makers
Here, courses are open as they move from content-delivery and knowledge-transmission to learning processes, societal value and academic citizenship - this also entails that the classrooms are open as university and society meet to work together towards the common good and future society - which makes knowledge open for critical investigation and discussion
- at the mode 3 university that we now see emerging everything is changing - and so universities and teachers are challenged to change their approaches and curricula as to move away from content into learning experiences and open up and embrace these new partnerships - but without loosing the purpose and virtues of eduction along the way. This is difficult as rapid change make us go into survival mode and just try to adapt to the change rather than make the change - so we risk just changing education, using technologies and working with society without connecting it to the inner soul of the university (its educational values and virtues) as well as its deeper structures for good teaching and learning (its teacher visions and learner experiences)
- one way to learn to survive in this changing landscape is to become an intentional change-maker - that is: someone able of creating intentional change in an unpredictable world - the subtitle of Nelson and Stolterman’s seminal book ‘the design way’
In a way, teachers has always been making changes to their curriculum and courses and producing learning designs - but that does not necessarily make them intentional change-makers or learning designers
For that they need to become focused on the experience and interaction rather than the content and system/product
That is, teachers need to gain the tools, methods and mindset that will allow them to explore and experiment with mode 3 teaching and learning - here the fusion of educational values, teacher visions and learning experience with design processes and the field of learning design might prove a fruitful response to mode 3 universities - and a way for teachers to reconfigure their teaching practice to fit the future
So what is learning design?
What is value-based vision-driven learning design?
What mindset does it require to become a learning designer?
Based on value for learners
Driven by teacher visions
Is a a process where the teacher is also the learner and do not yet hold the answer - it is something emerging in the partnerships between teachers and students - and university and society
Focusing on the deeper why of education - the ethics of the design & the value of the experience
Working with solving problems through intentional change-making and realising visions through intentional future-making in order to enhance the learning experience
Processual and exploratory (from noun to verb) - reconfiguring and reimagining what teaching and learning might be - in partnerships
Moving back and forth between values/visions (why) pedagogical principles/patterns (how) and learner interaction/experience (pedagogical formation of hand, head, hearts)
So, in order to create intentional learning designs that stay connected with the values and purpose of education we need to make sure we are moving from the why through the how to the what - and by constantly keeping the who in the centre
...designing is materializing morality (Verbeek, 2011, p. 90).
Taken together learning design can be said to emerge from the answering of these core questions
Connecting the answers to these questions in a way that move from the why questions, through the how questions and ending with the what questions
This require constantly checking that the answer in the why sections are carried over in the how sections and used to answer the how questions - and that the why & how answers are then carried over in the what sections and used to make decisions there.
If this is not done the learning design loses its intentionality and risks becoming a ‘surface design’ that are disconnected from the purpose of education and the inner structures of good teaching and learning - a learning design that just make people ‘do stuff with technologies’
To diminish the risk of this happening is at the core of value-based vision-driven learning design
Where most learning design processes focus on the how - value-based vision-driven learning design focus on the why in order to keep the learning design firmly grounded in a human-centered perspective where the learner as a human being is kept in the center of the design process.
What should the learner feel, experience and do when interacting with the learning design - and how is that a valuable human and educational learning experience?
These human-centered learning experiences are then incorporated into the teachers visions that hold the purpose of the educational experience
First then does the work on designing the course/activity begin - and only by constantly checking it up against the value-based vision-driven dimension
The last thing to do is to decide the actual technologies, content and actions of the course - that again should be firmly connected to and decided by the pedagogical structure and the learner’s experience
So let’s try to take a walk through such a process of value-based vision-driven learning design
(handout, numbers and arrows)
With the GO:IT as a concrete example of reconfiguring teaching practice through answering design questions
So the first layer of the learning design is the ‘why’ or value-based vision-driven dimension of the learning design with the wicked problem to be solved in a domain through working with creating a value-based and vision-driven learning design
NEXT SLIDE = DOMAIN
Short intro to
Course name + name of learning design (answer)
- before the redesign of the course it was a classic online course with transmission of knowledge containing videos with me talking over slides & assignments for the students to make sure they have gained the knowledge - and a few textual feedback and online supervision sessions where I told them what they needed to do next
-after the redesign I ended up having a course where I and students were talking to international scholars around the world - it was weekly dialogues where students presented and discussed their research projects with each other, me and international scholars and getting feedback on their thinking, process and project - as well as getting introduced to ressources and the international sholars perspectives that might help further their thinking and research projects - it became a course where students where students where in constant dialogue with each other, me and the world as they worked on their group research projects
So what wicked problem is it responding to? Why did I change it? = wicked problem
The first thing I did was to rethink the value and worth of the students’ experience: That is, I had to chose and design for the values that should be at the center of the learning experience in order to design against the present problem and design for a new future
Then I had to formulate the vision that incorporated the values and envisioned a new kind of learning expeirence
Together they form the why-ness of the learning design
The next layer of the learning design is the ‘how’ dimension with attention to the hand, heads and hands of the students as they are formed through the pedagogical approach and design patterns with the integrated values and vision
The hearts - what the students should feel and experience in the presense of the new learning design
The hands - what the sutdents should do when interacting with the new learning design to make values & vision come true
The heads - what the students should think and learn when interacting with the learning design
Pedagogoical approach that the teacher embody to support the values and vision
The design patterns that form the design in such a way as to form the head, hands and hearts of the students
Together they form the how-ness of the learning design
The last layer of the learning design is the ‘what’ dimension with attention to the technologies and materials that make pedagogy and learning experience manifest andvisible through the content and tasks or actions in the course. The final step after the activity or course is carried out is then to look all the way back to the wicked proplem, values and vision to validate and evaluate whether the learning design achieved what it was aiming for.
The technological setup to support the learning design and teacher vision
What they do before, during, after the go:it with the course content
How it is validated and evaluated that the new learning design is designing against the wicked problem and designing for an enhanced learning experience
as well as some preliminary results
change-making!
Together they form the what-ness of the learning design
Doesn’t mean that every now works and that you can now relax
Being a learning designer means never being finished
New problems emerge as old ones are taking care of - e.g. issues of vulnerability and insecurity (having you classroom open to the world) - or frustration and confusion (having open research processes instead of fixed structures and content)
Something needed to be handled in later design iterations
Make the filled out form available as an example as well