1. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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GovLoop Live Chat with Anthony Williams, Best Selling Author, Wikinomics &
Macrowikinomics presented by Google
GovLoop: I wanted to welcome everyone to the 2nd GovLoop live chat
GovLoop: For those who have never been to one
GovLoop: We bring a government innovator on GovLoop to talk about how to make gov’t awesome.
GovLoop: Take your questions
GovLoop: and have a little fun on Thursday at 2pm
GovLoop: want to first give a shout out to our fine friends at Google
GovLoop: who are the sponsor of this live chat
GovLoop: they know innovation…
GovLoop: I rely on Google apps to run GovLoop and love it
GovLoop: I’m happy to have bestselling author Anthony Williams
GovLoop: here today to chat with the GovLoop Community
GovLoop: for those who don’t know Anthony
GovLoop: he’s awesome
GovLoop: He’s written 2 bestselling books
GovLoop: Wikinomics and Macrowikinomics
GovLoop: he has people like CEOs of Nike, Best Buy call him a genius
GovLoop: which I agree…
GovLoop: and more importantly he cares about government
Anthony Williams: a lot
GovLoop: a lot and has written a lot about public service and gov 2.0

2. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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GovLoop: so today we are going to have a chat with Anthony
GovLoop: the format is like this
GovLoop: I’m going to start with a few questions which
GovLoop: he’ll answer in the chat box
GovLoop: if you have questions, please direct chat me
GovLoop: and I’ll ask them to him
GovLoop: makes it easier to line up the questions
GovLoop: but this is all about you GovLooper’s
GovLoop: so we love questions…
GovLoop: Cool?
GovLoop: Well let’s start…
Anthony Williams: awesome
GovLoop: Anthony…tell us a little bit about how you got interested in writing books and gov’t
Anthony Williams: I’m a poli sci kinda guy and always have been
Anthony Williams: business writing was just a façade!
GovLoop: nice
GovLoop: tell us a little about Macrowikinomics
Anthony Williams: I think government is key to where we’re going as a global society, but we need more
innovation
Anthony Williams: Sure, so a few big changes to note since Wikinomics came out
Anthony Williams: The Web has gotten a lot bigger. It’s richer in content, more diverse in terms of
voices, and more accessible to the masses.
Anthony Williams: When we wrote Wikinomics, Facebook had 100 million users and now it has 500
million

3. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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Anthony Williams: the web had about 1 billion users, and now there are 2 billion
Anthony Williams: mobile phone subs have gone from 3B to nearly 5B
GovLoop: wow
Anthony Williams: So a large proportion of humanity now has access to the Net
Anthony Williams: of course there is still a digital divide and we can come back to that
Anthony Williams: The point is that the Web now connects a whole lot more people in more useful
ways.
Anthony Williams: And the result is that we have a new fabric of connectivity in society
Anthony Williams: People can organize around any conceivable shared interest, goal or objective
Anthony Williams: what we’ve tried to do in Macrowikinomics is explain that the Internet is not just
about social networking
Anthony Williams: it has the potential to fundamentally reshape the way we organize key institutions
like science, education, health care, government and even the way we produce and consume energy
GovLoop: maybe you can talk more about the gov’t piece in the book…you focus on rebooting the public
square
GovLoop: What does that mean to you? And how can we accomplish it?
Anthony Williams: It’s a large section in the book and my favorite part by far
Anthony Williams: I see 5 domains for innovation
Anthony Williams: I’ll spend a minute outlining them
Anthony Williams: 1 is Democracy - making our political system more transparent and participatory
Alexander B. Howard: Hi everyone - showing GovLoop’s live chat to the WhoRunsGov community
manager, enjoying the book so far, Anthony!
Anthony Williams: We have a lot of work to do to help restore a culture of active and responsible
citizenship.
Anthony Williams: Our democratic culture has been horribly debased.

4. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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Anthony Williams: Citizens need to learn how to flex their democratic muscles
Anthony Williams: and politicians need to learn how to foster authentic dialogue
GovLoop: Thanks Alex…if people got ?s send me a private chat on right (find my name)…
Anthony Williams: So that’s the first domain and fortunately we see a lot of positive movement on that
front
Anthony Williams: but there are also signs that things are getting worse too
Anthony Williams: Second domain is public services
Anthony Williams: Right now we have a mass production model
Anthony Williams: Services are one-size fits all
Anthony Williams: Citizens are passive recipients
Anthony Williams: We need to get citizens more involved in both service design and service delivery
Anthony Williams: This is the core of what government does and it is the area in which citizens can have
the greatest influence
Anthony Williams: What’s interesting is that social entrepreneurs are moving ahead of government in
some cases
Anthony Williams: The health care space is an example of that
Anthony Williams: But here too we see evidence of positive movement, particularly with the open data
movement
Anthony Williams: 3rd domain is regulation
Anthony Williams: Our model of regulation is broken
Anthony Williams: It’s totally incongruent with the nature of the public policy issues we face, most of
which transcend jurisdictional boundaries
Anthony Williams: Agencies are also understaffed and have a hard time keeping up with the pace of
innovation today
Anthony Williams: We should be getting citizens and watchdog groups involved in collecting
intelligence

5. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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Anthony Williams: Elizabeth Warren’s proposal for the new bureau of consumer financial protection is
dynamite
Anthony Williams: 4th domain is global problem solving
Anthony Williams: We have massive issues to confront
Anthony Williams: Climate change, energy, water scarcity, poverty, security
Anthony Williams: International organizations are moving too slowly given the very difficult processing
of coming to international consensus
Anthony Williams: We need to harness the collective ingenuity of global society to address these issues
Anthony Williams: But we have a lot to learn about how to make that happen
Anthony Williams: Finally, the 5th domain is the public administration itself
Anthony Williams: There’s a lot of innovation happening today, in most public admins around the world
Anthony Williams: But to be honest, there is still enormous redundancy and inefficiency
Anthony Williams: Too many layers, too many silos, too much duplication, too litter sharing
Anthony Williams: GovLooper’s are the exception of course!!
GovLoop: hear ya
Anthony Williams: Networks like GovLoop are an important part of the solution
Anthony Williams: So too are initiatives like ideation platforms, shared code repositories, wikis for
collective document drafting, forums for cross-agency discussion
Anthony Williams: I think they are making a difference
GovLoop: we hope…
Anthony Williams: But there is a long road ahead
Anthony Williams: Remember the institutions and traditions of government were built up over
centuries - we aren’t going to change them overnight
GovLoop: well we are getting a ton of ?’s coming in Anthony

6. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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GovLoop: mind if we start lobbing some at ya?
Anthony Williams: go for it!
GovLoop: remember to send me a private chat to me with a question
GovLoop: 1st question
GovLoop: how do we get ahead and get more people involved on citizen engagement? It feels hard
Anthony Williams: It is hard
Anthony Williams: I think we need to avoid making broad calls for engagement to the general public
Anthony Williams: should focus more narrowly on specific constituents
Anthony Williams: So for example—ask seniors groups about how to improve the services to them
Anthony Williams: do it at the local level
Anthony Williams: Mix offline and online participation
Anthony Williams: Show real results
GovLoop: love it…2nd question- loved Wikinomics. I had trouble getting my agency to move forward.
Any ideas?
Anthony Williams: in other words prove to people that the gov’t is listening and acting
Anthony Williams: that’s a big question
Anthony Williams: 1st Collaboration to and for a purpose…never collaborate for the sake of
collaborating or experimenting with social media
Anthony Williams: that may sound obvious
Anthony Williams: but it’s important
Anthony Williams: keep on experimenting in small groups until something catches on
Anthony Williams: Best Buy is famous for always pushing the envelope
Anthony Williams: never giving up, trying new things

7. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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Anthony Williams: getting execs to give up control is often the hardest bit
GovLoop: Indeed…3rd question- what’s it like to write a book? What’s the process like?
Anthony Williams: long and arduous
GovLoop: ha
Anthony Williams: the fun part is the research
Anthony Williams: talking to lots of cool innovators
Anthony Williams: coming up with new ideas
Anthony Williams: great writing can be fun too, but it’s tedious
Anthony Williams: some days I’m not sure if the long form book format has legs
GovLoop: sounds a lot like making change…the fun part is the research and ideas
GovLoop: the hard part is the day in and out of pushing change forward
Anthony Williams: that’s true
Anthony Williams: We all know this isn’t about the technology, it’s about tribes, culture, and sociology
Anthony Williams: To drive change, we need a deeper understanding of the sociology of our
organizations
Anthony Williams: What makes us tick?
Anthony Williams: How can we shift incentives?
Anthony Williams: How do we bring people around shared goals and objectives, regardless of their
departmental affiliation or pay grade?
Anthony Williams: These are largely unanswered questions
GovLoop: This is a pretty cool question…let’s see if I can paraphrase here
GovLoop: What would you do in the case of TSA?
GovLoop: they try to be transparent and have an active blog

8. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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GovLoop: a great blogger - Blogger Bob
GovLoop: that talks a lot about being transparent and what he is actually doing
GovLoop: but people are still skeptical and fire back a lot
GovLoop: for instance even on GovLoop there is a discussion thread with 80 responses
Anthony Williams: It must be really hard to be TSA I must say
GovLoop: from gov’t folks and many of them are skeptical of screeners
Anthony Williams: because nobody really likes airport security and that's unlikely to change no matter
what
Anthony Williams: that said, I would keep maintaining the dialogue
GovLoop: Good answer
Anthony Williams: and the TSA show more visible improvements that would help people need a sign
that they are listening and acting hard to do when security mandates come from up high
GovLoop: next question - any best practices/examples re: public sector innovation that you love? int'l
examples appreciated
Anthony Williams: there are lots of examples, always surprised at how far reaching open gov is I was
just in Bratislava and they're all over open data they see it as a way to fight corruption especially in public
procurement just the other day I saw an interesting e.g. in the EU GreenMyPlace using social games to
encourage energy efficiencient citizens from 5 cities competing to make their city the greenest energy
efficiency is not a sexy topic so they're trying to make it more fun we could go on . . .
GovLoop: follow-up fun question - which country do you think is the furthest ahead (Steve note -
Anthony is Canadian so he’s biased - j/k)
Anthony Williams: that's a tough one, but I do think the recent push on the Open Gov Init has given the
US the lead; hard to admit as a Canadian! every agency is doing stuff, which is great UK is doing well too.
Canada has good innovation at the provincial level I find the best part though is all the social innovators
that transcend nations
GovLoop: next question - what do you see as key differences in innovation between private sector and
government
Anthony Williams: you don't go out of business in the public sector when you fail to innovate that's the
biggest difference

9. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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GovLoop: true true.....next question - any response to critics who argue that fostering citizen engagement,
online/social communications, etc. have no place during a time of budget cuts and tightening priorities?
Anthony Williams: that said, I find that the commonalities are greater nonsense. If anything, openness
and citizen engagement are more important now than ever; we need access to more skills and talent
engagement is how we get it. If anything, engagement should allow us to be more efficient not less,
especially when citizens come together to solve problems. That would have otherwise required more tax
dollars.
GovLoop: Couldn’t agree more
Anthony Williams: now more than ever we need to invest in innovation in every institution and not just
in business
GovLoop: so Anthony ...I know you are a road warrior we have a fun question - "You've traveled across
the globe. What are some common questions you are asked in your travel?"
Anthony Williams: so many good questions come up. People ask about whether Wikipedia and social
media in general are undermining authoritative sources of knowledge. How do we determine truth,
quality and credibility? They ask whether mass collaboration and open source are negatively impacting
job creation and economic growth? Recently I’ve been getting questions about Gladwell’s piece in the
New Yorker Can the Web really drive social change? Interesting that I detect more skepticism these days
GovLoop: Interesting… let’s talk about skeptics…
Anthony Williams: sure
GovLoop: if you are in an institution you are often faced with skeptics how do you address the skeptics?
Anthony Williams: With results. They are the only thing that will change people's minds, data too. We
need to get beyond anecdotes; prove that collaborative approaches are better. We also need to realize
when collaborative approaches might fail. And be discerning in how we apply collaboration; we're still in
the early stages though. I keep reminding myself of the fact that the Internet is still a very young medium
GovLoop: that ties in well to the next question - "There's been a few articles lately about Intellipedia and
how it is not really working as much as the hype says - especially 5 years later. Any thoughts on it?
Anthony Williams: People are too quick to declare failure. I think that speaks to the difficulty of getting
senior management to relinquish some of their control. Intellipedia is successful in driving adoption but
changing the actual internal vetting process require real redesign and then you start encroaching on
people's turf and budgets, so you expect real resistance and that's why you need leadership from the top
and the bottom

10. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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GovLoop: true true....15 minutes left. Next question - what is your impression towards sites like 4Chan
and Reddit that work in hive mind mentalities. They often band together for certain causes with
noticeable results.
Anthony Williams: A symptom of the digital age…tough, tough issue because like-minded people should
come together but in a democracy we need plurality discussion, debate based on real facts, not just
opinions. We need civility too and diversity is a strength; but people feel more comfortable in cocoons
and echo chambers as it reinforces their worldview
Andrew Krzmarzick: Anthony - Crystal ball: 10 years from now, what do you foresee for gov't and web
services?
Anthony Williams: and their sense of identity if only I had one! Here's an optimistic view much more
citizen involvement in service design leading to greater customization and more integration between
levels of gov't open data will help drive the innovation and the integration we will see fewer silos and
more networks. We will also see a greater role for non-profits and the private sector in delivering
services, new kinds of intermediaries that help drive the customization and the citizen interaction
Andrew Krzmarzick: Like the non-profit integration, getting more innovation w/social business models
GovLoop: I like that future...sounds awesome
Anthony Williams: I'm a little less optimistic on the democracy front
Andrew Krzmarzick: melding of private/non-profit missions?
Anthony Williams: It's already happening, the lines between sectors are blurring. Businesess taking on
the functions of govt’s, non-profits becoming entrepreneurial it's good to see.
GovLoop: want to get to couple more questions before we run out of time sorry to interrupt. Here's a
cool one; can social media make a real change in Government if you can't change the actual structure?
Does social media change the way work gets done even if the organizational chart stays the same?
Anthony Williams: changing the structures will take too long and require massive political upheaval so
we should look at social media as the new highways that traverse the silos and allow all levels of gov't to
act jointly; eventually the structures will adapt to the new ways that people are working - that’s my 2
cents
GovLoop: cool cool…next question - how to get people out of their echo chambers/comfort zones to
leverage diverse voices. (Referencing previous discussion above about people in cocoons)
Anthony Williams: I wish I knew the answer I think it starts with education though we don't really teach
civics anymore and we should it's fundamental to a democratic society perhaps there is more we can do
in the way we design for engagement

11. GovLoop Chat Presented by Google 11/18/2010
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GovLoop: last question - what 1 tip would you have for public servants trying to do good and make their
agency awesome
Anthony Williams: promote discussions where there will be conflicting points of view don't let this
nonsense about gov 2.0 failing get you down it's not true it’s amazing how much progress has been made
when you think about the short span of time that we have been at this
GovLoop: agreed 100%
Anthony Williams: I would focus on the goals that matter improving the quality of services delivered to
citizens is job #1 focus there and we will show results
GovLoop: well for those who know me they know I run a tight ship on keeping meetings on time and
want to make sure we let you out on time. Well let’s give a round of applause, read his books if you
haven’t Macrowkinomics and Wikinomcs
Anthony Williams: thanks for having me
GovLoop: you can find him on twitter @adw_tweets right?
Anthony Williams: that’s it
GovLoop: and find him on GovLoop and also want to thank our sponsor Google for helping us have
Anthony here today they are doing some cool stuff on gov’t innovation we will have the transcript for the
chat
Andrew Krzmarzick: Thank Anthony
GovLoop: posted tomorrow
Andrew Krzmarzick: really awesome hour
GovLoop: to keep up the conversation
Anthony Williams: Thanks Steve!!
GovLoop: so thanks everyone for coming... and the great questions... was a blast.... and until next time.
thats allllll foooooooolkssssss