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the Paid & Organic Gap
Bridging
Craig Galyon
Qualifications:
PPC Team Manager
Coworker to brilliant SEO minds
¼ Irish
craig.galyon@swellpath.com
@SwellPath
@craiggalyon
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Setting the stage
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Specialists
Generalists
Generalists
Generalists
Generalists
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
We all share the stage
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
“the day I realized my
significance in this world…
my whole job is to get people
to click on things”
-Mike Arnesen (Director of Analytics/Optimization)
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Foundation
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
PPC
Off-Site Control
Keyword data
Control messaging
SEO
On-Site Control
Site Architecture
Technical Expertise
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
PPC
Off-Site Control
Keyword data
Control messaging
Quick results
SEO
On-Site Control
Site Architecture
Technical Expertise
Cost Effective
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
PPC
Off-Site Control
Keyword data
Control messaging
Quick results
Costly
SEO
On-Site Control
Site Architecture
Technical Expertise
Cost Effective
Limited KW Data
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Paid & Organic Reports
PPC
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Ad stats Organic stats
Combined ad and
organic stats
Clicks Impr. CTR
Avg.
CPC
Avg.
Pos
Clicks Queries CTR
Listings/
query
Avg.
Pos
Clicks Queries CTR
Keyword #1 1,444 3,043 47.45% $1.69 1 1,583 3,451 45.87% 6 1 3,027 3,466 87.33%
Ad shown only 0 15 0.00% $0.00 1 0 0 0.00% 0 0 0 15 0.00%
Organic shown
only
0 0 0.00% $0.00 0 295 423 69.74% 8.6 1 295 423 69.74%
Both shown 1,444 3,028 47.69% $1.69 1 1,288 3,028 42.54% 5.6 1 2,732 3,028 90.22%+ =
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Organic Only CTR
Combined CTR
Considerations
How much was “cannibalized”
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Organic,
70%
Organic,
43%
Paid, 48%
0%
20%
40%
60%
80%
100%
21%
27%
+21%
total traffic
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Let’s party!
but wait…
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Acquisition Behavior Conversions
Keyword Sessions % New
Sessions
New Users Bounce Rate Pages / Session Avg. Session
Duration
Ecommerce
Conversion Rate
Transactions Revenue
Keyword #1 1,393 56.93% 793 16.30% 6.55 0:05:24 1.29% 18 $4,048.69
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
math, math, math…
$2,640
-$2,031
-$811
-$202
Combined
Organic
PPC Spend
Net
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Shared efforts are
always additiveNOT
Can it be?
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Shared efforts are
always additiveNOT
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
CEO
Biggest Head
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Back on track
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Combine
d Organic Cost Net
Keyword #1 $2,640 - $2,031 - $811 = -$202
Keyword #2 $4,200 - $3,350 - $200 = $650
Keyword #3 $4,010 - $2,065 - $121 = $1,824
Keep analyzing
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
PPC
Most profitable
Organic
Lower margins
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Paid & Organic Reports
SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
(not provided)
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
96%!!
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Total 32,800
(not provided) 31,578
Brand 169 0.5%
Non-Brand 1,053 3.2%
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Total 32,800
(not provided) 31,578
Brand 169 0.5%
Non-Brand 1,053 3.2%
Brand Ratio x 32,800 = 5,264
Non-Brand Ratio x 32,800 = 27,536
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Back to the well
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Identify 3 Branded Keywords
Type
Head term
Primary qualifier
Secondary qualifier
Keyword
- Nike
- Nike Shoes
- Nike Clothes
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Determine CTR & Volume
Type
Head term
Primary qualifier
Secondary qualifier
CTR
- 35%
- 23%
- 24%
Impr.
x 22,000=
x 4,500 =
x 3,500 =
Clicks
7,651
1,016
856
9,523
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Analyze Range
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
What tools
do you use
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
error pages
lucky
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
PPC
• Incorrect landing
page experience
• Lower quality scores
• Removed tracking
parameters
SEO
• Bad page content
• Broken link equity
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Recent site redesign
Frequent inventory changes
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Broken tracking
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Screaming Frog!
not just for SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Custom Source Code Search
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Do it right today,
last a lifetime
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
<span xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#">
<span typeof="v:Breadcrumb">
<a href="/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb">
Home
</a>
</span> »
<span typeof="v:Breadcrumb">
<a href=”/blades/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb">
Blades
</a>
</span> »
<span typeof="v:Breadcrumb">
<a href="/blades/broad-swords/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb">
Broad Swords
</a>
</span>
</span>
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
<span xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#">
<span typeof="v:Breadcrumb">
<a href="/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb">
Home
</a>
</span> »
<span typeof="v:Breadcrumb">
<a href=”/blades/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb">
Blades
</a>
</span> »
<span typeof="v:Breadcrumb">
<a href="/blades/broad-swords/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb">
Broad Swords
</a>
</span>
</span>
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
A B C D E F G
1 id title description google product product type link image link
2 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images.
3 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images.
4 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images.
5 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
6 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
7 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images.
8 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images.
9 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images.
10 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images.
11 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
12 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
13 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images.
14 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images.
15 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images.
16 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images.
17 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images.
18 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
A B C D E F G
1 id title description google product product type link image link
2 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images.
3 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images.
4 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images.
5 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
6 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
7 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images.
8 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images.
9 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images.
10 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images.
11 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
12 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
13 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images.
14 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images.
15 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images.
16 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images.
17 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images.
18 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
We’re not so different,
you and I
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Automatic Item Updates
Released 9/30/14
Update Price + Availability
schema.org microdata
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
No such thing as a
cookie cutter
relationship between
PPC/SEO
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Acknowledge the
strengths and weaknesses
of each channel
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
PPC has great keyword
level data and tools
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
SEO can’t be beat for
on-site analysis
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
PPC will continue to
automate, bringing
industries together
@SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO
Laura McDougall
&
Mike Arnesen
Craig Galyon
@craiggalyon
@swellpath
Thank you!

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Bridge the PPC SEO Gap | SEMpdx | March 2015

  • 1. the Paid & Organic Gap Bridging
  • 2. Craig Galyon Qualifications: PPC Team Manager Coworker to brilliant SEO minds ¼ Irish craig.galyon@swellpath.com @SwellPath @craiggalyon
  • 3. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Setting the stage
  • 4. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Specialists Generalists Generalists Generalists Generalists
  • 5. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO We all share the stage
  • 7. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO “the day I realized my significance in this world… my whole job is to get people to click on things” -Mike Arnesen (Director of Analytics/Optimization)
  • 8. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Foundation
  • 9. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO PPC Off-Site Control Keyword data Control messaging SEO On-Site Control Site Architecture Technical Expertise
  • 10. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO PPC Off-Site Control Keyword data Control messaging Quick results SEO On-Site Control Site Architecture Technical Expertise Cost Effective
  • 11. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO PPC Off-Site Control Keyword data Control messaging Quick results Costly SEO On-Site Control Site Architecture Technical Expertise Cost Effective Limited KW Data
  • 12. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Paid & Organic Reports PPC
  • 14. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Ad stats Organic stats Combined ad and organic stats Clicks Impr. CTR Avg. CPC Avg. Pos Clicks Queries CTR Listings/ query Avg. Pos Clicks Queries CTR Keyword #1 1,444 3,043 47.45% $1.69 1 1,583 3,451 45.87% 6 1 3,027 3,466 87.33% Ad shown only 0 15 0.00% $0.00 1 0 0 0.00% 0 0 0 15 0.00% Organic shown only 0 0 0.00% $0.00 0 295 423 69.74% 8.6 1 295 423 69.74% Both shown 1,444 3,028 47.69% $1.69 1 1,288 3,028 42.54% 5.6 1 2,732 3,028 90.22%+ =
  • 15. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Organic Only CTR Combined CTR Considerations How much was “cannibalized”
  • 16. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Organic, 70% Organic, 43% Paid, 48% 0% 20% 40% 60% 80% 100% 21% 27% +21% total traffic
  • 17. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Let’s party! but wait…
  • 19. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Acquisition Behavior Conversions Keyword Sessions % New Sessions New Users Bounce Rate Pages / Session Avg. Session Duration Ecommerce Conversion Rate Transactions Revenue Keyword #1 1,393 56.93% 793 16.30% 6.55 0:05:24 1.29% 18 $4,048.69
  • 20. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO math, math, math… $2,640 -$2,031 -$811 -$202 Combined Organic PPC Spend Net
  • 21. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Shared efforts are always additiveNOT Can it be?
  • 22. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Shared efforts are always additiveNOT
  • 25. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO CEO Biggest Head
  • 26. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Back on track
  • 27. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Combine d Organic Cost Net Keyword #1 $2,640 - $2,031 - $811 = -$202 Keyword #2 $4,200 - $3,350 - $200 = $650 Keyword #3 $4,010 - $2,065 - $121 = $1,824 Keep analyzing
  • 28. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO PPC Most profitable Organic Lower margins
  • 29. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Paid & Organic Reports SEO
  • 30. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO (not provided)
  • 31. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO 96%!!
  • 32. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Total 32,800 (not provided) 31,578 Brand 169 0.5% Non-Brand 1,053 3.2%
  • 33. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Total 32,800 (not provided) 31,578 Brand 169 0.5% Non-Brand 1,053 3.2% Brand Ratio x 32,800 = 5,264 Non-Brand Ratio x 32,800 = 27,536
  • 34. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Back to the well
  • 36. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Identify 3 Branded Keywords Type Head term Primary qualifier Secondary qualifier Keyword - Nike - Nike Shoes - Nike Clothes
  • 37. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Determine CTR & Volume Type Head term Primary qualifier Secondary qualifier CTR - 35% - 23% - 24% Impr. x 22,000= x 4,500 = x 3,500 = Clicks 7,651 1,016 856 9,523
  • 38. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Analyze Range
  • 39. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO What tools do you use
  • 40. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO error pages lucky
  • 43. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO PPC • Incorrect landing page experience • Lower quality scores • Removed tracking parameters SEO • Bad page content • Broken link equity
  • 44. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Recent site redesign Frequent inventory changes
  • 45. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Broken tracking
  • 47. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Screaming Frog! not just for SEO
  • 48. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Custom Source Code Search
  • 49. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Do it right today, last a lifetime
  • 50. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO <span xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#"> <span typeof="v:Breadcrumb"> <a href="/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb"> Home </a> </span> » <span typeof="v:Breadcrumb"> <a href=”/blades/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb"> Blades </a> </span> » <span typeof="v:Breadcrumb"> <a href="/blades/broad-swords/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb"> Broad Swords </a> </span> </span>
  • 51. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO <span xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#"> <span typeof="v:Breadcrumb"> <a href="/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb"> Home </a> </span> » <span typeof="v:Breadcrumb"> <a href=”/blades/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb"> Blades </a> </span> » <span typeof="v:Breadcrumb"> <a href="/blades/broad-swords/" rel="v:url" property="v:title" itemprop="breadcrumb"> Broad Swords </a> </span> </span>
  • 52. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO A B C D E F G 1 id title description google product product type link image link 2 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images. 3 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images. 4 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images. 5 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 6 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 7 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images. 8 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images. 9 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images. 10 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images. 11 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 12 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 13 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images. 14 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images. 15 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images. 16 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images. 17 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images. 18 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
  • 53. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO A B C D E F G 1 id title description google product product type link image link 2 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images. 3 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images. 4 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images. 5 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 6 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 7 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images. 8 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images. 9 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images. 10 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images. 11 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 12 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images. 13 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images. 14 CLO-102938 Tenn Cool A ladies' Apparel & Sporting G http://www.ex http://images. 15 TV_123456 LG 22LB451 Attractive Electronic Consumer E http://www.ex http://images. 16 DVD-056473 Merlin: Se Episodes 7 Media > DV DVDs & Mov http://www.ex http://images. 17 PFM654321 Dior Captu Dior Captu Health & B Health & B http://www.ex http://images. 18 CLO-294738 Roma Cotto A smart pa Apparel & Women's Cl http://www.ex http://images.
  • 54. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO We’re not so different, you and I
  • 55. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Automatic Item Updates Released 9/30/14 Update Price + Availability schema.org microdata
  • 56. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO No such thing as a cookie cutter relationship between PPC/SEO
  • 57. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Acknowledge the strengths and weaknesses of each channel
  • 58. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO PPC has great keyword level data and tools
  • 59. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO SEO can’t be beat for on-site analysis
  • 60. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO PPC will continue to automate, bringing industries together
  • 61. @SwellPath #SEMpdx | #PPC+SEO Laura McDougall & Mike Arnesen

Notas do Editor

  1. Industry is split between two types – specialists and generalists. Each have their own strengths & weaknesses.
  2. This is not an easy concept for PPC managers to accept. For better or worse, we are often measured by the dollars that we manage. Success often leads to greater investment, growing accounts. I don’t want to say this leads to PPC managers having big heads, so I did some analysis to find out.
  3. Which value seems more accurate? Does cumulative on-site metrics like Bounce Rate, Time On Site, Conv. Rate support equation A or B?