A Conversation with Fred Wilson, Paula Marincola and Marjorie Schwarzer

“Mining the Museum
Revisited”: A
Conversation with Fred
Wilson, Paula Marincola,
and Marjorie Schwarzer

Rusty slave shackles frame a silver 19th-century teapot. Ornate parlor chairs
surround a crude whipping post. A Ku Klux Klan hood lies in an elegant pram.
214 These are enduring images from Fred Wilson’s Mining the Museum installa-
tion, presented at the Maryland Historical Society (MHS) in Baltimore from
April 1992 to February 1993. Wilson, a New York-based artist of African
American and Caribbean descent, was commissioned by curator Lisa G.
Corrin and director George Ciscle of The Contemporary (now Contemporary
Museum) in Baltimore to work with an institution of his choice to develop a
site-specific work of art. He selected MHS because, as he recalls, “I felt really
uncomfortable there.”
By unearthing and juxtaposing artifacts from one historical society’s col-
lection, Wilson exposed how museums frame a community’s history by what
they choose to display and what they omit. Mining the Museum (MTM)
rocked the museum field. As Randi Korn observed, “museum professionals
who visited said it was a landmark exhibit; it made them feel humble and
lost; they were dazed by the heartfelt questions it raised about history, truth,
values, ownership, interpretative perspective.”1 MTM “stimulated so much
enthusiasm within the profession,” wrote Corrin, that all types of museums
“suddenly wanted ‘Fred Wilsons’ of their own; they were encouraged to look
at their own collections with a renewed sense of purpose and possibility.”2 To
this day, MTM remains a touchstone for how artists can challenge curatorial
and institutional authority.
In May 2010, Paula Marincola, executive cirector of the Pew Center for
Arts & Heritage, and Marjorie Schwarzer, professor of Museum Studies at
John F. Kennedy University, sat down with Fred Wilson in his Brooklyn studio
to discuss MTM’s legacy and explore Wilson’s thoughts on how his artistic
process intersects with history museum practices. The following is excerpted
from that conversation.

Constructing Perspectives: Artists and Historical Authority

Paula: Some people in the focused on that.
museum field believe that Mining As you know, I’m a visual artist,
the Museum (MTM) has been a and I came to this from both direc-
model of how history organizations tions, from the museum field, but
can become more comfortable with also as an artist. So what I’m look-
the problematic potential of shared ing to do is not wholly prescribed
authority. Others feel it has made by the mission of the institution
history museums more anxious or the reason why they bring me
because of its provocative stance, in. I’m interested in expanding
and, I think, because of the license my understanding of things, and
that you, as an artist, felt free to uncovering whatever kind of denial
take with conventional museologi- the institution has or the percep-
cal techniques. What do you think tions that maybe I have a different
the impact of MTM has been on view; and not doing the same thing
history museum practice? Are you over and over. I’ve done things
aware of that? Do you see that? about slavery several times, and
Fred: I can’t say I have knowl- unless there’s a real different take
edge of that because history muse- on it, I don’t want to go down that
ums are not where I usually go. I road again.
wish I had a grant to go around I don’t like to do what I’ve done
to museums around the country, before. So often I’m invited by a 215
around the world, and see what particular museum because they
the impact has been, but I have not know what I’ve done in the past,
had the time or the opportunity, to and they think that I’m some kind
really understand, even to know, of a museum consultant. I know
what happened in Baltimore. I get that’s harsh, but I do think muse-
snippets from people, but I really ums are looking for something new
don’t know. I’ve been back once in and different and somebody to
recent years, and it was interesting look at the collections. If I’m not
to see the data, what had changed. really jazzed by some way to get at
I was only involved in two other it that is new to me, I’m not going
historical sites. One was a site in to go there.
Old Salem, North Carolina, which Marjorie: Let’s talk about what
had a huge impact, and the other an artist brings to the table when
was The Museums of History and working with a history museum.
Ethnography and the National Traditional historians analyze past
Gallery of Jamaica. I have some events in order to tell stories so that
idea of the immediate impact, but we may bear witness, commemo-
I don’t know what the long-term rate, and perhaps in the best of
impact is. I’m always involved cases, re-imagine the present and
in the next project, and I really future. How do artists connect to
haven’t gone back to a historical this practice?
site besides Jamaica and Old Salem. Fred: Before I get to that what I
So that’s also why I haven’t really have to say that you cannot ignore

Letting Go? Sharing Historical Authority in a User-Generated World

the racial dimension of this. I’m a mine.
black man, and I went to an institu- Paula: —as opposed to factual
tion about the 19th century where recapitulation.
they had basically nothing [on dis- Fred: Factual yes, recapitulation
play] about black people in a city no. Context determines everything
that was majority African American. for me. Projects are different from
You can’t ignore that what I saw one another because of it. Perhaps
was not being seen for more than that gets lost when people try to
one reason, not only conservatism. unpack what I do to find a system.
It was obvious to me because it It changes from place to place
was germane to my existence. because of the environment I’m in.
So perhaps part of this conun- I have to absorb where I am.
drum that museums find them- Paula: In terms of your working
selves in is that they can’t wrap methods, do you read traditional
their minds around something that historical texts?
perhaps they, no matter what they Fred: No.
do, could not see, and I’m not Paula: Oral histories?
talking about the slavery. Once it’s Fred: No.
out of the bag, obviously, it’s com- Paula: So the research you do
pletely visible, but what I’m talking is archival?
216 about is how personal it is when Fred: Put “research” in
artists make works, how extremely quotations.
personal it is. The racial thing is not Marjorie: It sounds like your
the most personal part of it, but “research” is to go somewhere and
how artists go towards an extreme “absorb where you are.”
personal thing. You are going deep Fred: That’s right.
inside, and you’re letting whatever Marjorie: What does that look
comes out, come out. You don’t like?
hold back, and this is something Fred: I’ll first say it simply and
that the larger population would then get more complex. I meet
really rather not do. everybody, look at everything, and
Paula: So you’re saying that then make it work.
what artists do is investigate and Marjorie: Who’s everybody?
express their own highly specific Fred: As many people as I can
responses to given situations. Can in the museum top to bottom. I try
you tell us a bit about how you go to include everybody, because in
about doing this? the end it becomes real important.
Fred: I talk to people and look I also try to speak to many people
at everything. I try to find out about outside the museum, to get differ-
the things that I’m interested in and ent perspectives of the museum.
follow that path. This is particularly important when I
am working outside of the U.S., but
Paula: What you do as an artist as museum people do have similar
then is look for truth that is yours— training in the U.S. it is important to
Fred: I look for truth that’s speak to the locals for a different,


Tktktktktk

nuanced view. research assistants are important,
I usually look in the archives— no matter how tangential they are.
but not deeply. I look through as I have one notebook for each 217
many things as I can. I respond to project in which I write down
“the visual” first and foremost. I everything that strikes me. I write
look at the collection, and then I down ideas, but also comments
also look at files or whatever form that people make in conversation,
it’s in. If it’s vast, it’s a process of just offhand comments. Things that
meandering. I may not get a mas- interest me, I’ll write them down.
ter narrative of what the place is In the archive, when I see things
about, but [I do get] a snapshot. that are interesting—I write them
I’m not looking for anything in down. Things that I think I’ll need, I
particular, at first. I do read bits and write down.
pieces of texts, first-person docu- Then I speak to lots of people
ments, and oral histories once I outside the museum. I ask the
have questions or get excited about Public Relations or Education
an artifact or artwork. The art and Department, “Can I speak to
the objects drive the bus for me. I groups of people that might come
call it “research,” but it’s not what to the exhibition?” It is ethno-
anyone else would call research. I graphic, but I don’t make borders
do take liberties, poetic license, if between friendship and informa-
you will, but it’s usually obviously tion gathering. In ethnography,
so. I am very concerned that what I there are real issues about that, but
end up with cannot be discounted I’m not in that dialogue, and don’t
on factual grounds, so my research want to be. I’m both ethnographer
and my conversations with cura- and native informant.
tors, scholars, and graduate school By the end of the research peri-


od I look at what I have, and see if mission to follow your informed
my early ideas for the final project instinct.
still seem germane. Sometimes they Fred: I try to inform myself as
do because you come into a situ- much as I can. It’s the story of my
ation and you’re so new that you life. My family moved every five
see something no one else is see- years within New York City, and,
ing. Other times you realize that, in order to exist in these different
well, everybody knows that. You’re environments, I had to become
just new to it. So the ideas are no a different person, realizing that
longer of interest. That’s part of the people saw me in a particular way
process. according to the environment.
Of course, curators’ scholarship I had to fit in as a black child in
influences me—I’m not doing deep an all-white school in suburban
research, so I rely on them for what Westchester County.
they know about their collection. I Then we moved into this black
think a reason why museums don’t and Latino neighborhood in the
mind my projects is because they Bronx. Looking like everybody else
see a lot of what they know reflect- but not having the same experience
ed in what I end up with. I may was another negotiation that I had
have a different point of view, but to do. So, I’m always negotiating
218 I take very seriously what curators environments, and context has
have to say, the hard information, always been important to me as a
their scholarship. So, I think they’re way to survive. When you are on
not wholly upset about what I end the fringe of environments and
up doing. not central to what they’re about,
Paula: So you’re like an you hit the edges. You hit the hard
ethnographer/historian? edges.
Fred: Yeah, I don’t deny the I figured out how to negoti-
ethnography aspect of it because I ate in life from a very young age,
do talk to people and look at every- understanding that people are not
thing, and try to find out about necessarily seeing you for who you
the things that I’m interested in are, and you may not understand
and follow that path. Of course, them entirely. That has completely
just because I’m African American informed my exhibition-making and
doesn’t mean that I knew what the my projects wherever I go.
response of people in Baltimore Paula: When you do a project,
would be to their own history. I how much active negotiation with
learned later that there were things organizations takes place for you?
that were more specifically mean- How do you arrive at the level of
ingful than I thought when I ended trust that you need?
up doing the project. It happens Fred: I make friends with the
all the time, but luckily in my work people that I work with, the cura-
there I realized how much I could tors and everyone. The other thing
push that environment. is that I only do projects if I have
Paula: You give yourself per- the director and/or the chief cura-


tor’s complete and undivided sup- museum’s collecting and selective
port. MTM was great because the display, how that effects the collec-
directors and chief curators of the tions, the history, and the meaning;
Contemporary Museum—George and what it is communicating to
Ciscle and Lisa Corrin—and of the the viewer, especially to me. Plus a
MHS—Charles Lyle and Jennifer myriad of other questions that fan
Goldsborough—made sure things out before me while I am making
happened. I’ll say it again and the exhibition. The exhibition is the
again; I learned a huge amount vehicle for this investigation and
from the Contemporary Museum the product, the art. But in the end,
about dealing with communities, for me, the museum is the subject.
dealing with museums, and I replay I try to come to each museum as
a lot of what I took from the expe- a blank slate, because I won’t dis-
rience of doing MTM in different cover anything new if I arrive with
situations. preconceived notions. So, no, I
So, it’s a combination of talk- don’t have a theory.
ing to everybody and having the Paula: You didn’t go to
support of those in power so those Baltimore thinking, “I’m going to
conversations happen. transgress the Historical Society.”
Marjorie: Where else are you Fred: That’s right. I had no
drawing your inspiration from? You idea. Even after it was done I didn’t 219
said your core idea and the core really realize how far I’d gone.
reaction you had was visceral, emo- Marjorie: A historian’s
tional, very deep— approach is to tell a story. You say
Fred: Yes. “I’m going to tell a story and if I’m
Marjorie: – and you had to really good at it, I’m going to tell it
almost mine yourself and your reac- in a new way.” How is that differ-
tions to the pieces. ent from your practice?
Fred: Right. Fred: I never would use the
Marjorie: Where I’m going word “story.” I’m not trying to tell
with this is that historians will typi- a story. Obviously, each tableau in
cally be inspired by a nugget, an MTM had a particular organization.
artifact, something they’ve read, a These things do kick in, but it’s not
conversation. where I start. The project starts
Fred: Those things are similar with the research; the more time I
in my case. But historians are deal- have to research better. Then I pull
ing with a particular time period out nuggets of interesting things,
or subject and the nugget they and ask myself “what is the thread
find is within that. My focus is the for all this stuff?” What am I feel-
museum. ing excited about, upset about? Is
Paula: Maybe what you mean there an overarching relationship
is that you don’t have a theory between these things and the envi-
beforehand that you’re looking to. ronment I’m in?
Fred: What I mean is I am The third part is putting it
looking at the ramifications of the together as an exhibition. I get


Tktktktktk

more specific as I go. For MTM, the entrance. In one sequence I had my
220 wall color of the rooms had a great shirt off and was walking through
deal to do with what I wanted the galleries, saying things like,
people to feel, and how I was feel- “I dreamt I was at the Maryland
ing about the information as I laid Historical Society, and everything
it out. I was particularly interested was the same but different.”
in historical colors and how I could I did that because I wanted
squeeze color for emotive mean- people to understand—well, some-
ing. I think the first space was gray. thing’s going to be odd about this
I can’t remember now. Isn’t that exhibition. Also, I put myself in
funny? It was an orientation space. there. It’s me and not the institu-
I wanted people first to understand tion, and of course, you see that
how to read the exhibition. Nobody I’m not a white American. So
that I met outside the museum there were lots of things I wanted
had ever been to MHS or maybe people to, at some level, have in
they went as a kid. It’s that kind of their thoughts as they went into
place. So, the audience, as far as the exhibition. I didn’t tell them
I knew, was going to be Historical what the exhibition was about. I
Society people. And, here I was just made this impressionist video
changing the form of display. because that’s basically what
I even went to the lengths of the exhibition was going to be:
making an impressionistic video impressionistic.
of me going through the galler- The Historical Society made
ies. This videotape was the first a big banner for me. I told them
thing I had in the front downstairs, I wanted it to be red, black, and
one of the few things I had in the green. So, they did that, and unfor-


tunately, I should have designed it. you may not realize that your ques-
I should have controlled everything, tions are what the whole thing is
but I didn’t. about, but you have these ques-
Marjorie: This is what happens tions that are lingering. That was
when you share authority, eh? my thought about that space and
Fred: Exactly! the things I was finding. I thought
Paula: So, you’re not for shared that the globe was just so unusual,
authority. an amazing object.
Fred: No, I’m not. I mean, as Marjorie: The globe?
an artist you’re not really sharing. Fred: The silver truth trophy,
I don’t think people should share a silver globe, with the word
authority to the degree that you “truth” across it. Fascinating object,
devalue your own scholarship, your bizarre, and so I thought it was a
own knowledge. That’s not sharing great thing to start the exhibition
anything. You’re not giving what with because what I was doing was
you have. That is highly problem- not anti-connoisseurship. It wasn’t
atic. You have to be realistic about anti-visual. It wasn’t anti-beauty
your years of experience, what you because I think beauty is one of
can give, and what others can give. these wonderful things that muse-
That’s why I respect curators; ums and artists have in their arsenal
they have information that I don’t to engage people nonverbally. 221
know and I could never know and You either got it or you didn’t
I don’t necessarily want to know. get it. Basically, the whole exhibi-
(Laughter) I respect that. Anyway, I tion was like that. It’s what I’m giv-
gave up authority completely about ing up, what I’m trusting. What I’m
the design of the banner, and giving up is that there are people
as I think about it, I should have who will not get it, scratch their
designed it myself. I thought I was head, and keep on going. As an
clear, but the way it was designed, artist, that’s the way it works, you
if you don’t have the colors in a know.
certain way, it’s just three colors. It’s an internal experience that
So, I was disappointed with the you can take or leave, and that’s
banner, but I had so much happen- fine for me. I think institutions really
ing at that moment that I just let want a certain amount of informa-
it go. tion to be understood by all– they
The exhibition itself, the first have a certain goal, and they want
space was really about these ques- this goal to be hit as best it can.
tions, asking these questions, Exhibitions are not perfect vessels
people asking themselves ques- for that, so I just go with that. It’s
tions. In the first gallery, there are a perfect vessel for art as far as I’m
a lot of weird things, funny things concerned. Within that, I’m push-
in that space with no explanation. ing these things and not knowing
So that, to me, was the introduc- if people are going to run out
tion to how one might have to deal screaming (I’m joking, of course). I
with this exhibition. At that point, assume that people would enjoy it


or have an experience with it, but Before I got them to other issues,
you really don’t know. It’s like any that they understood the language,
artwork. I’ve done as much as I can like it or not, and that they were
to sort of put all my feeling into this reading these things with that
thing, and what happens, happens. language.
I just put it all in there, and let Marjorie: I remember when
the chips fall where they may. I went to see MTM. I walked in
My artworks don’t change cold, meaning Let’s go for a nice
museums; they change individuals. afternoon stroll, and I came up the
This is what art does. If you have elevator, and there it was. I have
a personal experience with the to say it knocked my world apart,
artwork, and it’s safe because you honestly. I remember the lighting
can have it inside you. Nobody has on the canvases.
to know that you didn’t notice that Fred: Oh yes. That was very
this museum you’ve been going to important.
all these years said nothing about Marjorie: I’d seen antebellum
slavery. paintings many times, and suddenly
I really was thinking about the the lighting was turned to highlight
people that were coming to the the slaves.
institutions that I was used to see- Fred: Yes, yes.
222 ing. When I came there one day Marjorie: That’s when I started
people were all dressed in antebel- to shake, because, Fred, I grew up
lum outfits. It was like— in Maryland and in the third grade,
Paula: Re-enactors. we were explicitly taught that
Fred: Yes, and I was looking for Maryland never had slaves.
my free papers [from slavery] all the Fred: Oh, that’s bizarre.
time. (Laughter) Anyway, that’s the Marjorie: I’m giving you my
audience that I saw as coming to personal reaction to how meaning-
the museum, and so I didn’t want ful that exhibition was to me.
to lose them entirely. Fred: Wow. The historical
Paula: So they were in your dimension is important for me,
mind in part? the scholarship of others, but then
Fred: They were totally in my there’s this whole personal thing,
mind. I really wanted people to people’s experiences where I know
walk a certain direction so they that I’m only touching the surface.
experienced MTM in a certain Paula: Do you think that view-
way. So, that’s as close to a story ers need to see themselves in the
as I get. I wanted them to have museum?
this experience in a linear fashion Fred: I don’t know. What I try
because I had different areas of to do is . . . all artists like a conver-
engagement with the subject, and sation with a person on whatever
I wanted them to first try to grasp level they can grasp what you’re
the language of this exhibition, putting out there. You are speaking
how to negotiate it, how to read it. your language and hopefully they


can grasp something from that lan- preparation in exhibition planning
guage. I just want engagement. and museum interpretation.”3
Paula: But you know you can’t Fred: So first let me ask you:
control that, right? what he’s saying is all about,
Fred: I cannot control it. No “Dammit, we just thought we were
curator can control that. No educa- able to control everything again,
tor can control it. I mean, history and now he’s telling me we can’t.
museums are more concerned than We’re not in control.” To me it’s like
art museums about audience expe- that’s just so problematic, I can’t
rience. I think I am a little more in even—
that direction, but I don’t want to Paula: Can’t even go there?
lead anybody in any kind of didac- Fred: It would be lovely for one
tic way. That’s kind of where I draw person to have this kind of impact
the line. I have a problem with edu- alone, but to me, it’s really about
cators who want to lead it to the who has control.
degree where they [visitors] are not Paula: Or who can let go of
having their own real experience. control.
Paula: In an article that Fred: Yeah, letting go of con-
Marjorie sent me this past weekend trol yet again.
from Curator: The Museum Journal, Paula: Right.
there was something apropos this Fred: Redoing the paradigm 223
whole notion of shared authority seemed to be good for the public,
that I thought was interesting. The but in happenstance, by accident,
author, Ken Yellis, writes: The “dis- I’m revealing that there are still
tortion of museum time and related control issues even in museums’
techniques in Wilson’s arsenal— refiguring out how to deal with the
especially his use of legerdemain, public.
his counter intuitive juxtapositions Paula: I picked that quote out
of objects and his satirical employ- because, for me, what artists do is
ment of curatorial nomencla- assume their own authority in the
ture—constitute, I think, the key to situation.
MTM’s mind-altering power. The Fred: Exactly, but what is
techniques are, however, it seems most freeing is that people told
to me, also directly linked to the me—museum directors told me
museum field’s equivocal response and other people at the American
to his work. To accomplish what Association of Museums [confer-
Wilson does, we would have to vio- ence held in 1992 in Baltimore]—
late every rule we have learned in that they saw the whole museum,
our entire experience. And those of and then they went to my exhibi-
us who cut our teeth in the muse- tion. It was obviously so subjective,
um education trade would have what I did, but because of the his-
to forego one of our most hard- tory of slavery, MTM had meanings
won achievements: the increased beyond just me. But when they
emphasis on visitor orientation and went back through the museum,


Tktktktktk

they realized that the museum was Paula: Did you have any idea?
not as objective as they thought, Fred: No. I had no idea. I was
and that it was just as subjective as doing what I do.
224 what I was doing. What I did with this project
So that, to me, is the money within the art world, as you know,
shot. That, to me, is the—you has been going on since the late
know, that is what is important sixties. Clearly, the notion of insti-
to me. Not the history of slavery, tutional critique and site specificity
particularly because a lot has been and looking and revealing through
written about slavery. It’s the visual terms was going on. I added
museum’s framing of slavery and a racial scenario in museum exhibi-
the narrative that one gets used tions in a more specific way than
that is kind of curious to me. Also, other people may have done, but,
in this particular institution, the you know, it was part of a con-
total negation of a crucial part of tinuum. It was part of a continuum
Maryland’s history that has impact- as an artwork, and like the Lone
ed so many of its citizens was kind Ranger, you walk off into the sun-
of outrageous to me, but I realized set after you’ve done your thing.
that after I got the piece done. It Paula: (Laughter)
was not what I was thinking about, Fred: I mean, I don’t want to
and certainly doing the project, I be the Lone Ranger, but maybe
had no concept that it would have Tonto.
any far-reaching— Paula: What do you think is
Paula: I was just going to ask left to do in terms of how institu-
you that. tional narratives are overturned or
Fred: I mean I didn’t do this undone or questioned?
thing, “I’m gonna change the Fred: I think there will always
world!” be another layer that can be looked


at because they are institutions, just
like the government. That’s why
there are all the checks and bal-
ances of the government, because
there’s always something that can
be looked at and made better. It’s
the nature of these institutions to
kind of control and cover.
Paula: It’s power.
Fred: That’s the nature of
power.

Condensed and edited by
Marjorie Schwarzer with Paula
Marincola and Benjamin Filene

1. Thanks for Mia Breitkopf, executive
assistant at The Pew Center for Arts &
Heritage, for her organizational and 225
technical skills in helping to realize this
conversation.

Quoted in K. Yellis, “Fred Wilson, PTSD,
and Me: Reflections on the History
Wars,” Curator: The Museum Journal
52, no. 4 (2009): 353.
2. Lisa Corrin, “Mining the Museum:
an Installation Confronting History,”
Curator: The Museum Journal 36, no.
4 1994): 311.
3. Yellis, “Fred Wilson, 337–38.


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