This session will now take place online. The session will now be led by Andrew McMillan and Kim Moore, both of whom have extensive experience working with a range of different media outlets. The session will take place as a text conversation using AdobeConnect. The session runs from 10-12.
Online Transcript: RTP 2019-20: Core Series: Media Training - 18th Mar
1. You
Hi All! Welcome to this virtual session, my name is andrew McMillan, and I'm a senior
lecturer in Creative writing in the manchester writing school,
You
we'll just give everyone a couple of minutes in case, as for me, the technology is a little
slow!
You
is this the first time most of you have used this online Adobe space?
Charlotte McLean
Yes
Leone Betts
Yes - first for me.
Virginia Astley
Yes, I've not used it before
Andrea
First time
Charlotte McLean
First time
Nourhene DZIRI
Mine as well
James McCrea
Indeed
You
excellent! It's quite easy to use, and brilliantly it saves a transcript after each session so
that if (like me) your forget things that might have been said in a session, you can just look
back at the transcript
Feth-Ellah Mahi
First time as well
You
I know the interface is quite basic but that's so people with older or slower computers don't
have a lag time
You
So, I'm first of all sorry that we can't meet in person, i was really looking forward to that,
but I'm really happy that our session can go ahead anyway, I want to move down our of
people in the chat, and just wonder if you could say a couple of lines about yourself and
your own research area, just so I get a sense of who we have here. I'm just going to work
down my list,, so Andrea can we start with you?
Andrea
Sure
2. Andrea
Realise I haven't typed my surname in, I'm Andrea Buccino, Practice-based PhD in Film/
Creative writing
You
Excellent thanks Andrea! Welcome
You
Charlotte next
Charlotte McLean
Hi, I'm doing a PhD looking at the archive a recently deceased landscape architect and my
research will involve interviews with ex work colleagues, friends etc.
You
excellent thanks Charlotte. Corey can we come to you next
Corey Estensen
Hello, I'm an historian, I work at three different museums in cheshire, including Tatton
Park, and my PhD thesis is on the WW1 career of Maurice, 4th Baorn Egerton of Tatton
You
fantastic! these are all such interesting projects. Feth-Ellah can we come to you now?
Feth-Ellah Mahi
Hi! I am doing a PhD in diasporan Literature across different contexts
You
fab, thanks! Hayley, can we come to you next?
Hayley Charlesworth
Hi, I had technical difficulties so have only just arrived! I'm Hayley, I'm a second year part-
time PhD in English (Gothic Studies), researching bisexuality, biphobia and bi-erasure in
post-millennial gothic television.
You
welcome, it's great to have you here Hayley! James can we come to you now?
James McCrea
Hello all, I'm in the Gothic Studies department working on a cultural history of the animated
skeleton
You
Brilliant! Leone?
Leone Betts
Morning, I'm practice-led, creative writing, in my second year... and I'm looking at the
representation of single-parent, nurturing fathers in children's and young adult literature.
You
fab thanks Leone, Nourhene?
Nourhene DZIRI
3. Hi! I'm a second year PhD research student of literature working on ageism in
contemporary young adult fiction.
You
Excellent! And finally, Virginia!
Virginia Astley
Hello everyone, I'm a musician and poet doing a practice-led creative writing PhD looking
at places of significant resonance on the River Thames and involving working on the river
and talking with lock keepers etc.
You
Brilliant! Now let's go back around in another order!
You
Kidding
kim
Hi!
You
I think Kim moore might have joined us as well, so welcome Kim! Kim just recently
finished her PhD and handed in yesterday so big congrats to her
kim
Thank you!
You
Basically what we're here to talk about is media and wider dissemination of our research
beyond the academy, has anyone had any experience of this so far?
Corey Estensen
Yes, I have written a chapter of a book
You
Excellent, tell us a bit about that Corey
Corey Estensen
It was part of WW1 remembrance at Tatton Park, written for Education groups but can be
downloaded form the webpage
You
Ah brilliant Corey, and how did you find writing that, in contrast to the more formal
academic side of the PhD?
You
Or I should say, how was the voice different?
Corey Estensen
It was a freer form in that I had more control- but I still worried at pitching it correctly for the
audience!
You
4. Yes I think that's always a worry, but great that you've already done that, and we might
come to chat about that more in a bit, I thought I might run through a couple of brief points
first, and then we can open out into some questions or more general discussion.
You
Firstly, just to emphasise that, particularly for those of you thinking about academic careers
after phD, which not all of you will be, and that's fine, this notion of 'impact' is something
which is really important.
You
In humanities its very hard I think to quantify impact, in science its slightly easier:
You
I discovered this cell, it cured this disease impact is: more people are alive
You
in terms of impact in humanities its harder, though not impossible, to think about these
notions of impact, --- impact is often broken down into two different things, 'reach' and
'significance' so what's the reach (outside of the academy) of your work, and what's its
significance, what has it changed- not all impactful work does both things, but its worth
bearing those two different things in mind.
You
Our aim, always , should be to throw our research as wide as possible, and where
possible, co-create community interventions, so that we don't just 'deliver' our research to
the community, but they have an impact on it as well, they help to shape it , with their own
expertise about the subject, the more we can shift our centre outside of the academy, I
think its really important.
You
One way, obviously , to get more eyes on our research and our work is through the media,
which is something both me and Kim have enjoyed doing over the last few years, so I
wanted to lay out a few key points as to how I think its best to approach that
You
firstly, we're thinking about newspapers, radio, television, screen etc, so any form of media
which has a more generalised audience than an academic journal or a conference. How
can you reach people who might not ordinarily have heard about your research
You
Academic conferences for example are quite a closed system of people already interested
in your subject, how can we broaden that.
You
One question to ask yourself about your research is: What's the hook
You
what's the thing that I can get some attention for in the media.
You
so for example my work is often around masculinity, but that's very broad, but I did a 30
minute documentary for radio four around the gym, because it was January and we were
able to sell it as "everyone starts a new exercise regime in January" so that was the 'hook',
5. the thing for a generalised audience which then allowed me through the door to
disseminate some of my research to a more generalised audience
You
Anniversaries are always a thing to look out for , particularly if pitching to radio or
magazines with your research
You
google lists of upcoming anniversaries or commerations
You
are there any which might fit into your research,, could you hang a piece on one of them
You
so for example, we've seen lots of historians able to disseminate their work more widely
over the last few years because of the anniversaries of the first world war
You
THere are also straightforward news stories about research, which could be sent as press
releases to newspapers etc, but mostly, the human interest of your work is the key thing,
is there a personal story, something you can hang it on, is there a story that hasn't been
told that you could tell,
You
try to unpick the broadest themes of your research, so as I said mine and masculinity,
which then means you can write around the subject, whilst not necessarily writing about
your specific content for your PhD.
You
I think its important to imagine all this as a kind of meeting any audience half way, so we're
not here to tell them we have knowledge about something, because they will have their
own knowledge, their own experience, their own expertise, its how we bridge between the
two, how can we invite people in to what we're doing, in a way that allows them to share
what we're doing too
You
Kim, did you have anything to add about your own experience, you had that recent
program about scaffolding for example?
You
Hopefully Kim will be able to jump in shortly,
You
Did anyone have any questions or thoughts about that initial splurge of text from me?
kim
On my way lol
kim
Just sorting the baby out
Leone Betts
6. Yes - I was wondering how you actually ended up doing the documentary for radio four.
Did you contact someone? How did they find you or you them?
kim
Yes I did a R3 programme based around my poems and the hook was poems I'd written
about my dad being a scaffolder
kim
R4
You
Excellent Kim if you carry on telling us about that and then we'll come to Leone's question
kim
I went on private passions again the hook was my poems around being a music teacher
which is why they approached me in the first place. Then I was talking to the producer and
randomly said I would like to be a poet in residence at a scaffold company l
You
excellent. so that notion of the 'hook' was important for getting in there?
kim
And the producer thought it was a great idea and ran with it
kim
So I would say a hook but also don't be afraid to enthuse to people in the media
You
excellent. So Leone, I first got in there by appearing on a different show, just reading a
poem, and then emailed the producer to pitch her an idea (that didn't end up happening)
but then we ended up developing this other thing. The best thing to do is to listen to the
end credits of R4 docs, in the morning slot and the sunday afternoon slot, and they always
say who produced it
kim
A random conversation They are looking for ideas it makes their job easier! So don't
discount htthr power of
You
in the same way we'd target different publishers or conferences for our work, we can target
specific producers and just first of all enquire if they're interested in a pitch
kim
discourandom conversation
Leone Betts
I see - thanks.
You
Do you have a sense of what you would like to do around your research Leone?
Leone Betts
7. I'm not sure exactly, but I do hear a lot of discussion around fathers bringing up children
these days. Less about how they are being represented in stories however. So I do think
there's a gap.
You
Yes, that's really interesting, you could see how , if there was a news story or upcoming
event around Fathers bringing up children , or a government report released, that you
could also tie it into that somehow
You
there is definitely a gap you're right
Leone Betts
I shall keep an eye out!
You
Other questions or thoughts from the floor?
Corey Estensen
yes - did you get paid for your appearances?
kim
I got paid for the radio 4 thing I did. But just expenses for private passions on Radio 3 and
expenses for R6 appearance
You
Yes, so generally if its the BBC we're not talking lots, but mostly there's a token
appearance fee for reading a poem etc, but for longer docs you would get paid a
presenting fee, and a fee to write the script as well (if that's something you're doing) and
then I think for mine I also got licenced to read out poems I'd already written, so perhaps
came in at around £800-£1000 altogether, token fee is normally £50-£80 for a brief
appearance
James McCrea
follow up to Corey's question: do people with PhDs get paid to do ANYTHING?
kim
Works out about I be just been commissioned to write some poems responding to
Wordsworth lyrical ballads and that Wworks out about 800 quid
You
haha that is the million dollar question I think James... it's about trying to be as diverse as
possible with the knowledge you have I think,,, so we haven't mentioned newspapers
much, or great online spaces like Tortoise, Wellcome Collection and Unbound which all
want content and pay for it, around human interests, research etc
Corey Estensen
i think that you have to be quite careful with working with the media sometimes, because
they will want to use your research, and not necessarily credit you with it, OR pay you for
it. We have recently had the TV programme "Britain's Lost Masterpieces" working at Tatton
- they asked for a lot of research to be done, even though the programme had a
researcher - and then rejected a lot of it to not use. And no payment1
You
8. Yes i think that's a really valid point Corey
You
Protect your own knowledge and research as much as possible
kim
Sorry about mistakes in my relies I'm not drunk! Typing NG one handed with baby
squarking
You
no worries Kim!
You
Any other questions from the floor or thoughts, or things you want us to chat about/
You
Don't be shy!
kim
I didn't realise the producers have to pitch ideas before the get permission to do anything
kim
do anythingso the more info you can give them in your pitch the less work for them
Hayley Charlesworth
I suppose one of the things I'm struggling with is getting my foot in the door in the first
place! I've not yet published anything, and aside from my own blog, conferences, and
some vague discussions on an unrelated podcast, I've not really disseminated my
research anywhere. I'm a bit lost on where to start.
Corey Estensen
Well - how far can you go, into publishing or talking about the content of your thesis, to
media, without it impacting on the production of 'original research' element of your PhD? I
am part-time and not due to publish PhD until 2023 - so it makes me wary to talk too much
about it in public. So what are the guidelines?
You
Thanks for these two questions: Hayley we'll come to yours first.... do you have a sense of
what it is within your research that you'd like to tell people about, or that you'd like to
disseminate wider
Hayley Charlesworth
Honestly, that's the bit where I'm getting stuck, trying to answer the whole "why does this
matter?" question to myself, never mind the wider public. The reason why I'm doing my
PhD is that I feel like it's addressing a gap in the literature, but outside of academia I'm a
little unsure of the impact it could and will have. (Perhaps I'm just second-guessing myself,
imposter syndrome gets to us all!)
You
Yes you're definitely right about Imposter syndrome I think; and with something like bi
erasure, that's clearly very important and a necessary subject to be talking about... I often
think about: how could i get through the door to allow me talk about what i want to talk
9. about, so even a pithy piece like 5 top bi characters on tv etc, sounds like a throwaway
piece but could then allow you to get in a couple of lines about bi erasure etc... if that
makes sense?
Hayley Charlesworth
Yeah that makes sense!
You
Corey; I think you're right to be cautious , but also I think its about thinking wider than the
specific PhD work itself... firstly academia thrives in the open, so we don't need to worry
too much about people stealing our ideas etc, but secondly, if you want to hold your cards
close to your chest for example, I think its about writing about the broader themes
sometimes rather than your specific research, so I wrote a piece for Tortoise on
hetrosexual gym culture, which isn't necessarily what i'm researching, but it intersects into
my research about masculinity and class, and so is just like a different spoke perhaps?
Corey Estensen
Yes, i can understand that. I did think about doing a spin-off piece about airports, which
could talk 'near' to my subject rather than actually 'on' my subject
You
Yes I think that's areally interesting way of phrasing it actually , something 'near' if not
directly 'on'
You
Any other questions from the floor guys?
kim
I also think blogging is great for getting a foot in the door and connecting with other people
writing or thinksG about your topic
You
Yes Kim, do you want to say a little bit on that?
kim
You have to work hard at it and engage with other blogs like yours but all the work I've put
into my blog has always paid off
kim
offits important to have a regular slot and stick to it. So I blogged once a week for years on
a sunday
You
yes that's really good advice kim
kim
Again it's good to have a hook! So I posted a poem up by someone else and talked about
why I liked it. I also led I to that by talking about my work as a writer as there wasn't
anyone being open about the process of working as a freelance writee
Andrea
Could you send us a link to your blog, Kim?
You
10. https://kimmoorepoet.wordpress.com/
You
here we are
kim
I haven't updated for ages because of baby but it's www.kimmoorepoet.wordpress.com
Andrea
And do you have just the blog or also expand to other social media platforms to increase
reach?
kim
I post the blog on FB and twitter
kim
I also use both platforms in a mix of professional and personal
Andrea
Cheers. It's helpful to get a sense of what a good blog looks like
kim
personalfor example I runthree residential courses a year which are a huge part of my
income and the only marketing I do is through the blog
kim
Ithe radio 4 producer looked at my blog to help her with putting the pitch together for the
programme
kim
I've had commissions tto write new work through it
You
really interesting kim thanks
You
We can start to wrap up now if we want, I'll leave my email address here so people can get
in touch with ideas or if they want more guidance on any of this- but we've still got time for
more questions if people have them
kim
It's a lot of work and can be a drag but it has also brought me a lot of joy and friendships...
And money😉
Leone Betts
I guess everyone else knows this (sorry!) but this is the first time I've heard of "Tortoise"
and when I Google it, I only get links to the reptile! Can you tell me what it is?
Virginia Astley
Was the Wordsworth commission through your blog Kim?
You
11. Hi Leone, it's a new media website that was set up quite recently. https://
www.tortoisemedia.com
You
a kind of new media space, in the same vein has Huffpost etc
Leone Betts
Fantastic - thanks.
kim
No I think that came through work with Wordsworth Trust which came through building
Virginia Astley
thanks- its great that way of one thing leading to another
kim
Profile as a writer through blog. I guess what I'm saying is everything we do as writers and
researchers is linked and often things pay off
Nourhene DZIRI
Many thanks for all the tips. Really appreciated!
kim
offyears down the line
You
Thanks so much everyone- and I'm really sorry that we couldn't meet in person today! I'll
get Nikolai to circulate a transcript of our conversation, and again email me on
a.mcmillan@mmu.ac.uk if you have any other questions or ideas!
Andrea
Thank you!
Corey Estensen
thanks Andrew and Kim - bye
kim
I would also say you have to prepare to be flexible when your work is used in the media
buy have red lines that you won't compromise on
Virginia Astley
Thanks everyone- very helpful session
kim
Ah bye! Still wittering olol
Leone Betts
Thanks - really helpful.
Andrea
It's very helpful wittering, Kim
Andrea
Thanks again :)