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po:pm
Product Owner vs. Product Manager
One person or two?
One role or two?
Sagi Smolarski - AgileSparks
I have a friend,
Sarah, who,
years ago,
learned to fly a
hot air balloon
on her first solo
flight, Sarah got
hopelessly lost
?!?
...down below,
she saw a
campfire and a
man next to it,
so she lowered
the balloon...
hey man! where
am I?
when she was
within ear’s
reach, she
shouted:
you are in a hot
air balloon,
about 40 feet off
the ground!
startled, the
man answered...
Are you an
engineer?
Surprised, my
friend asked...
how did you
know?
to which the
man answered...
What you told me is 100%
correct...
my friend
replied...
... yet it doesn’t help me
at all
my friend
replied...
Are you a
product
manager?
so the guy
asked...
how the hell did you know?
and Sarah,
which happens
to be a product
manager at
ACME.com
answered...
You don’t know how you got here,
you have no clue where you are, you
don’t know how you are going to
proceed from here...
to which the
man replied...
...and somehow you found a way to
blame me !
to which the
man replied...
what they didn’t know, is that
they both work for ACME.com,
a pillar of our country’s high
tech industry...
Meet ACME.com
Marketing
Business
Analysts?
icons by dapino http://www.iconarchive.com/show/people-icons-by-dapino.html
Project
Management
Office
Product
Management
R&D
Quality
Assurance
They are running
a tight ship, with
well defined
groups, clear
responsibilities,
really well
organized silos
All the silos are responsible
together for delivering a product
Marketing
Business
Analysts?
icons by dapino http://www.iconarchive.com/show/people-icons-by-dapino.html
Project
Management
Office
Product
Management
R&D
Quality
Assurance
“We” are responsible for delivering a valuable product
Feedback at the speed of the turtle
User
which makes for a pretty
unhappy customer, who
gets his requests late...
and often... wrong
The Bungay Friction Model
To him, this picture is not a joke... it’s reality
Chaos Report 1994
31%
Critical
Failure
53%
16%
SuccessChallenged
Software Projects Success Rate
Planned Cost: $10M
$27MActual Cost:
Standish Group Chaos Report 1994
...and apparently he is
not alone...
On average:
Looking at Successful Projects
However, some projects
do succeed.
What are they doing
which makes the
biggest difference?
16%
Success
His Direct Involvement
Throughout The Project
User
Reason #1 For Project Success?
Direct, continuous
user involvement
consistently rates as
the #1 difference
between projects
that succeed...
and those that fail
Minimize the distance from user to maker
The Product
Team
PO
User
● Avoid miscommunications
● Shorten the feedback loop
● Seize opportunities
● Collaboration instead of negotiation
So, when ACME.com
tried to improve, they
looked at agile & lean,
and unsurprisingly,
those methods
promote proximity of
the makers to the
users. There are clear
benefits here...
PO Role Definition
❏ Deliver the right product
❏ Articulates and champions the vision
❏ Creates & prioritizes the product
backlog
❏ Collaborates with the delivery team,
users and other stakeholders on
translating the vision to work plans
❏ Manages expectations
❏ Accepts work
Scrum, in particular, defines a new role which brings the
product manager closer to the user, and to the team that
creates the software
Challenges with Single PO
➔ Capacity
◆ Can you work with customers and be available
to the team all the time?
◆ Can you focus on the tactical and still stay on
top of the strategic?
➔ Skill set
◆ Can you have business expertise, marketing
expertise, engineering expertise and domain
expertise?
◆ Do people even want to do all the above?
... but Sarah soon found out that this role
creates a new set of challenges, and the extra
closeness to the team is demanding
Marketing
Pricing
Market research
Competitive analysis
Customer relations
Focus & Attention
Long Term
Strategy
Short Term
Tactical
Product Backlog
Sprint & Release planning
Acceptance Criteria
Vision
Product Positioning
Roadmap
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
Personas
UX
User stories
Customer
Development
Outbound
Environments
Assets
Technology
Coding conventions
Testing strategy
Architecture
Technology stack
Product
Development
Inbound
User feedback
Design partners
Focus groups
...indeed, owning a
product is a big job,
with many concerns...
Customer Support
Marketing
Pricing
Market research
Competitive analysis
Customer relations
The Natural Solution?
Long Term
Strategy
Short Term
Tactical
Product Backlog
Sprint & Release planning
Acceptance Criteria
Vision
Product Positioning
Roadmap
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
Personas
UX
User stories
Customer
Development
Environments
Assets
Technology
Coding conventions
Testing strategy
Product
Development
Architecture
Technology stack
PO
PM
...so they decided to
split the role into
two...
...they asked Ron, a Team Lead, to assume
the role of PO, while Sarah took on
outbound & long term responsibilities...
H.L. Mencken
“for every complex problem, there is an
answer that is clear, simple... and wrong”
PM & PO
The Product
Team
PO
User
The Product
Team
PO
User
PM
Separations hurt...
PM & PO
The Product
Team
PO
User
PM
She understands the
customer well
PM & PO
The Product
Team
PO
User
PM
She understands the
customer well
He doesn’t
understands the
customer well
➽
PM & PO
The Product
Team
PO
User
PM
They do their “agile”
thing
PM & PO
The Product
Team
PO
User
PM
Who owns the
product?
PM .. .. .. .. vs .. .. .. .. PO
The Product
Team
PO
User
PM
Lean thinking and Agile principles are
customer-focused for business success.
They are not “development processes”
Agile
“the business” R&D
Making it Work
The Solo PO
<=>
Less… is more
Smaller scope
➽ Smaller groups
➽ More manageable workload
➽ More focus Too often, scaling up
promotes inefficiency
and mediocrity
Break your company into
small start-ups
User Segments
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
PO
Customer
Development
Product
Development
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
PO
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
PO
Enterprise clients
Retail clients
B2B
This is one option
Product Areas / Services
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
PO
Customer
Development
Product
Development
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
PO
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
PO
Users Growth
Shopping Cart
Playlists
This is another option
The PO Team
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
Customer
Development
Product
Development
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
Short Term
Tactical
Long Term
Strategy
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
PO
PO
PO
CPO
The Chief Product Owner
You may need to have a
Chief Product Owner, but
individual POs still fully
own their area
Leverage Outside Expertise
Product
Owner
Marketing
Specialist
But… I’m not
a marketing
expert! But I am…
and I will
help you
market your
product
“It take a village to raise a child”
African proverb
Other Roles Are Fine
… when they don’t come between the product and its users
Product
Owner
Product
Marketing
User
Market
I am responsible
for creating a
great product
I am responsible
for telling the
market about it
& bringing in new
users
Marketing
Project
Management
UX Expert
Team Lead /
ScrumMaster
Product
Owner
Domain
expert
Tracking
Risk
Management
ALM
Product
Discovery
Team
Estimates Architect
Long-term
product
architecture
Release Train
Product launch
Pricing
Telling the
world about the
product
Positioning
Quality
xx-ilities
Interaction
Design
Usability
Testing
Visual
Design
Long-term
Velocity
Domain
knowledge
Domain trends
Long Term
Strategy
Short Term
Tactical
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
Marketing
Project
Management
UX Expert
Team Lead /
ScrumMaster
Product
Owner
Domain
expert
Tracking
Risk
Management
ALM
Product
Discovery
Team
Estimates Architect
Long-term
product
architecture
Release Train
Product launch
Pricing
Telling the
world about the
product
Positioning
Quality
xx-ilities
Interaction
Design
Usability
Testing
Visual
Design
Long-term
Velocity
Domain trends
Domain trends
Trade the dream of success...
for the reality of feedback
The Big Picture is Smaller than You think
Success Success
what it really looks
like
what people think
it looks like
Don’t invest
too much in
long term
planning
and
analysis
Experiment
Use experiments & data to drive product
direction
A significant
portion of the
work should be
experiments,
where we check
assumptions
against reality
Not only For Startups
Build Measure
Learn
Insights
Product Data
How fast can you
spin that wheel?
Build the Team’s Knowledge of Users
Spoon feeding teams
with detailed user
stories is boring and
inefficient
Develop the team’s
capabilities to define
work items
The team should
interact with the
user
Scaling Up
But... We Need More
SCALE
e.g. we have a very large project, for a
small # of large clients, so having many
POs working directly with them will
impose extra burden on the client
Scaling Up
First rule of project
SCALING
Scaling Up
First rule of project
SCALING
DON’T
Large Projects ... Fail ... Almost Always
Standish Group Chaos Report 2013
A word of warning.
Scaling up a project is
harmful
But if you must Scale there are
recipes
Scaling Agile @ Spotify
Here are just some of
the most popular
examples
Scaling Up Agile
All Agile Scaling
Models are Wrong...
...but Some are
Helpful
There’s no right
answer, but some
interesting pointers
Scaling with SAFe
http://scaledagileframework.com/
Not my favourite
solution, but
sometimes it may
make sense
Scaling with SAFe
Marketing
Pricing
Market research
Competitive analysis
Customer relations
The SAFE (?) Solution
Long Term
Strategy
Short Term
Tactical
Product Backlog
Sprint & Release planning
Acceptance Criteria
Vision
Product Positioning
Roadmap
Customer
Focus
Engineering
Focus
Personas
UX
User stories
Customer
Development
Environments
Assets
Technology
Coding conventions
Testing strategy
Product
Development
Architecture
Technology stack
PO
PM
Scaling with Large Scale Scrum
Product Owner Team
One Product Owner
Prioritizes all work
Product Area Owners
Define work
Less separation,
that’s better
Scaling with Large Scale Scrum
Scaling @ Spotify
Product Ower per Squad
Sometimes, a Chief Product Owner to help
with synchronization
Sounds pretty
good :)
Scaling @ Spotify
What do Agile Product Management
Experts Say?
Marty Cagan is a Product
Management expert.
He has managed product at
ebay, Netscape HP and other
big name companies. He’s now
part of the Silicon Valley
Product Group
He wrote the top selling (*) book
on product management.
The book devotes a big section
to the role of the Product
Manager
(*) Based on Amazon kindle sales position
What do Agile Product Management
Experts Say?
“...for product software teams...the product
manager is the product owner, and he represents
the customer, He will need to be extremely involved
with the product development team...”
hmmm….
What do Agile Product Management
Experts Say?
“... some also like to have different people covering
the product manager and the product owner role,
but this is usually a symptom of a deeper problem ...
nobody truly owns the product”
What do Agile Product Management
Experts Say?
there’s more...
“... this model is based on a flawed view of software
that holds that you can define high-level
requirements independent of detailed
requirements ”
What do Agile Product Management
Experts Say?
flawed indeed...
“... in companies with this model, product managers
become little more than spec-generation service. It
is a frustrating job, tends to stifle innovation, and
rarely produces successful products ”
What do Agile Product Management
Experts Say?
can’t get much
clearer...
Summary
❏ PO which fully owns the product
➽ Less barriers to being Lean & Agile...
and successful
❏ Keep that model as long as you can
❏ Scale horizontally
❏ Less long-term planning, more experiments
❏ Get the delivery team closer to the users
❏ Other roles can help
❏ Create a product discovery team
❏ When you have no choice, pick a scaling
model which keeps the team as close to
the user as possible
Summary
Sarah is now chief Product
Owner at ACME.com
She got her hot air balloon pilot
license.
Ron is a ScrumMaster on the
same project.
Together, they delivered a kick-
ass product.
They now get along fine.
SummaryEpilogue
po=pm
the end
Sagi Smolarski
sagi@agilesparks.com

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Product Owner vs Product Manager

  • 1. po:pm Product Owner vs. Product Manager One person or two? One role or two? Sagi Smolarski - AgileSparks
  • 2. I have a friend, Sarah, who, years ago, learned to fly a hot air balloon
  • 3. on her first solo flight, Sarah got hopelessly lost ?!?
  • 4. ...down below, she saw a campfire and a man next to it, so she lowered the balloon...
  • 5. hey man! where am I? when she was within ear’s reach, she shouted:
  • 6. you are in a hot air balloon, about 40 feet off the ground! startled, the man answered...
  • 7. Are you an engineer? Surprised, my friend asked...
  • 8. how did you know? to which the man answered...
  • 9. What you told me is 100% correct... my friend replied...
  • 10. ... yet it doesn’t help me at all my friend replied...
  • 11. Are you a product manager? so the guy asked...
  • 12. how the hell did you know? and Sarah, which happens to be a product manager at ACME.com answered...
  • 13. You don’t know how you got here, you have no clue where you are, you don’t know how you are going to proceed from here... to which the man replied...
  • 14. ...and somehow you found a way to blame me ! to which the man replied...
  • 15. what they didn’t know, is that they both work for ACME.com, a pillar of our country’s high tech industry...
  • 16. Meet ACME.com Marketing Business Analysts? icons by dapino http://www.iconarchive.com/show/people-icons-by-dapino.html Project Management Office Product Management R&D Quality Assurance They are running a tight ship, with well defined groups, clear responsibilities, really well organized silos
  • 17. All the silos are responsible together for delivering a product Marketing Business Analysts? icons by dapino http://www.iconarchive.com/show/people-icons-by-dapino.html Project Management Office Product Management R&D Quality Assurance “We” are responsible for delivering a valuable product
  • 18. Feedback at the speed of the turtle User which makes for a pretty unhappy customer, who gets his requests late... and often... wrong
  • 19. The Bungay Friction Model To him, this picture is not a joke... it’s reality
  • 20. Chaos Report 1994 31% Critical Failure 53% 16% SuccessChallenged Software Projects Success Rate Planned Cost: $10M $27MActual Cost: Standish Group Chaos Report 1994 ...and apparently he is not alone... On average:
  • 21. Looking at Successful Projects However, some projects do succeed. What are they doing which makes the biggest difference? 16% Success
  • 22. His Direct Involvement Throughout The Project User Reason #1 For Project Success? Direct, continuous user involvement consistently rates as the #1 difference between projects that succeed... and those that fail
  • 23. Minimize the distance from user to maker The Product Team PO User ● Avoid miscommunications ● Shorten the feedback loop ● Seize opportunities ● Collaboration instead of negotiation So, when ACME.com tried to improve, they looked at agile & lean, and unsurprisingly, those methods promote proximity of the makers to the users. There are clear benefits here...
  • 24. PO Role Definition ❏ Deliver the right product ❏ Articulates and champions the vision ❏ Creates & prioritizes the product backlog ❏ Collaborates with the delivery team, users and other stakeholders on translating the vision to work plans ❏ Manages expectations ❏ Accepts work Scrum, in particular, defines a new role which brings the product manager closer to the user, and to the team that creates the software
  • 25. Challenges with Single PO ➔ Capacity ◆ Can you work with customers and be available to the team all the time? ◆ Can you focus on the tactical and still stay on top of the strategic? ➔ Skill set ◆ Can you have business expertise, marketing expertise, engineering expertise and domain expertise? ◆ Do people even want to do all the above? ... but Sarah soon found out that this role creates a new set of challenges, and the extra closeness to the team is demanding
  • 26. Marketing Pricing Market research Competitive analysis Customer relations Focus & Attention Long Term Strategy Short Term Tactical Product Backlog Sprint & Release planning Acceptance Criteria Vision Product Positioning Roadmap Customer Focus Engineering Focus Personas UX User stories Customer Development Outbound Environments Assets Technology Coding conventions Testing strategy Architecture Technology stack Product Development Inbound User feedback Design partners Focus groups ...indeed, owning a product is a big job, with many concerns... Customer Support
  • 27. Marketing Pricing Market research Competitive analysis Customer relations The Natural Solution? Long Term Strategy Short Term Tactical Product Backlog Sprint & Release planning Acceptance Criteria Vision Product Positioning Roadmap Customer Focus Engineering Focus Personas UX User stories Customer Development Environments Assets Technology Coding conventions Testing strategy Product Development Architecture Technology stack PO PM ...so they decided to split the role into two... ...they asked Ron, a Team Lead, to assume the role of PO, while Sarah took on outbound & long term responsibilities...
  • 28. H.L. Mencken “for every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple... and wrong”
  • 29. PM & PO The Product Team PO User The Product Team PO User PM Separations hurt...
  • 30. PM & PO The Product Team PO User PM She understands the customer well
  • 31. PM & PO The Product Team PO User PM She understands the customer well He doesn’t understands the customer well ➽
  • 32. PM & PO The Product Team PO User PM They do their “agile” thing
  • 33. PM & PO The Product Team PO User PM Who owns the product?
  • 34. PM .. .. .. .. vs .. .. .. .. PO The Product Team PO User PM Lean thinking and Agile principles are customer-focused for business success. They are not “development processes” Agile “the business” R&D
  • 36. <=> Less… is more Smaller scope ➽ Smaller groups ➽ More manageable workload ➽ More focus Too often, scaling up promotes inefficiency and mediocrity Break your company into small start-ups
  • 37. User Segments Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus PO Customer Development Product Development Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus PO Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus PO Enterprise clients Retail clients B2B This is one option
  • 38. Product Areas / Services Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus PO Customer Development Product Development Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus PO Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus PO Users Growth Shopping Cart Playlists This is another option
  • 39. The PO Team Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus Customer Development Product Development Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus Short Term Tactical Long Term Strategy Customer Focus Engineering Focus PO PO PO CPO The Chief Product Owner You may need to have a Chief Product Owner, but individual POs still fully own their area
  • 40. Leverage Outside Expertise Product Owner Marketing Specialist But… I’m not a marketing expert! But I am… and I will help you market your product “It take a village to raise a child” African proverb
  • 41. Other Roles Are Fine … when they don’t come between the product and its users Product Owner Product Marketing User Market I am responsible for creating a great product I am responsible for telling the market about it & bringing in new users
  • 42. Marketing Project Management UX Expert Team Lead / ScrumMaster Product Owner Domain expert Tracking Risk Management ALM Product Discovery Team Estimates Architect Long-term product architecture Release Train Product launch Pricing Telling the world about the product Positioning Quality xx-ilities Interaction Design Usability Testing Visual Design Long-term Velocity Domain knowledge Domain trends
  • 43. Long Term Strategy Short Term Tactical Customer Focus Engineering Focus Marketing Project Management UX Expert Team Lead / ScrumMaster Product Owner Domain expert Tracking Risk Management ALM Product Discovery Team Estimates Architect Long-term product architecture Release Train Product launch Pricing Telling the world about the product Positioning Quality xx-ilities Interaction Design Usability Testing Visual Design Long-term Velocity Domain trends Domain trends
  • 44. Trade the dream of success... for the reality of feedback The Big Picture is Smaller than You think Success Success what it really looks like what people think it looks like Don’t invest too much in long term planning and analysis
  • 45. Experiment Use experiments & data to drive product direction A significant portion of the work should be experiments, where we check assumptions against reality
  • 46. Not only For Startups Build Measure Learn Insights Product Data How fast can you spin that wheel?
  • 47. Build the Team’s Knowledge of Users Spoon feeding teams with detailed user stories is boring and inefficient Develop the team’s capabilities to define work items The team should interact with the user
  • 48. Scaling Up But... We Need More SCALE e.g. we have a very large project, for a small # of large clients, so having many POs working directly with them will impose extra burden on the client
  • 49. Scaling Up First rule of project SCALING
  • 50. Scaling Up First rule of project SCALING DON’T
  • 51. Large Projects ... Fail ... Almost Always Standish Group Chaos Report 2013 A word of warning. Scaling up a project is harmful
  • 52. But if you must Scale there are recipes Scaling Agile @ Spotify Here are just some of the most popular examples
  • 53. Scaling Up Agile All Agile Scaling Models are Wrong... ...but Some are Helpful There’s no right answer, but some interesting pointers
  • 55. Not my favourite solution, but sometimes it may make sense Scaling with SAFe
  • 56. Marketing Pricing Market research Competitive analysis Customer relations The SAFE (?) Solution Long Term Strategy Short Term Tactical Product Backlog Sprint & Release planning Acceptance Criteria Vision Product Positioning Roadmap Customer Focus Engineering Focus Personas UX User stories Customer Development Environments Assets Technology Coding conventions Testing strategy Product Development Architecture Technology stack PO PM
  • 57. Scaling with Large Scale Scrum
  • 58. Product Owner Team One Product Owner Prioritizes all work Product Area Owners Define work Less separation, that’s better Scaling with Large Scale Scrum
  • 60. Product Ower per Squad Sometimes, a Chief Product Owner to help with synchronization Sounds pretty good :) Scaling @ Spotify
  • 61. What do Agile Product Management Experts Say? Marty Cagan is a Product Management expert. He has managed product at ebay, Netscape HP and other big name companies. He’s now part of the Silicon Valley Product Group
  • 62. He wrote the top selling (*) book on product management. The book devotes a big section to the role of the Product Manager (*) Based on Amazon kindle sales position What do Agile Product Management Experts Say?
  • 63. “...for product software teams...the product manager is the product owner, and he represents the customer, He will need to be extremely involved with the product development team...” hmmm…. What do Agile Product Management Experts Say?
  • 64. “... some also like to have different people covering the product manager and the product owner role, but this is usually a symptom of a deeper problem ... nobody truly owns the product” What do Agile Product Management Experts Say? there’s more...
  • 65. “... this model is based on a flawed view of software that holds that you can define high-level requirements independent of detailed requirements ” What do Agile Product Management Experts Say? flawed indeed...
  • 66. “... in companies with this model, product managers become little more than spec-generation service. It is a frustrating job, tends to stifle innovation, and rarely produces successful products ” What do Agile Product Management Experts Say? can’t get much clearer...
  • 67. Summary ❏ PO which fully owns the product ➽ Less barriers to being Lean & Agile... and successful ❏ Keep that model as long as you can ❏ Scale horizontally ❏ Less long-term planning, more experiments ❏ Get the delivery team closer to the users ❏ Other roles can help ❏ Create a product discovery team
  • 68. ❏ When you have no choice, pick a scaling model which keeps the team as close to the user as possible Summary
  • 69. Sarah is now chief Product Owner at ACME.com She got her hot air balloon pilot license. Ron is a ScrumMaster on the same project. Together, they delivered a kick- ass product. They now get along fine. SummaryEpilogue