1. A DEBATE
RESPONSE
Dun-dun-dun!

2. Position 2
Position 1
First: because a group of people are becoming more economically efficient,
Nemo notes that it satisfies a conception of collective action, but…

3. Position 2
Position 1
PLATO

4. THE UTOPIAN
SOCIETY
• Collective Action: “Group’s steps or
actions while working toward a
common goal. When individuals engage
in collective action, the strength of the
group’s resources, knowledge and
efforts combines all parties to more
readily achieve the shared goal.”
• Two parts:
1. Groups steps or actions
2. Working toward Common Goal
• I only need to disprove a single one of
these parts. Admittedly, I picked the
weaker case to make (group’s steps),
though there’s an argument for both.

5. GROUP’S
STEPS OR
ACTIONS?
• Plato’s utopian society would be
instituted at once
• All the dominos are put into place
• Plato says “go” and knocks over the
first domino
• Is the fourth domino actually satisfying
collective action by knocking over the
fifth, even when it’s being pushed?
• Seems to be more consistent with Plato
committing the action, as he’s already
laid it all out, and the consumers are
simply actors.

6. A POTENTIAL
RESPONSE
• You may argue that everything in reality
is preceded by another action,
degenerating my argument into
something deterministic and,
ultimately, redundant.
• The difference is that, as you mentioned
also, “reason” determines action in
Plato’s society. Reason is objective, I
think you’ll agree.
• The goal that uses reason, though, is
highly subjective.
• The goal results in a timeless state.
Plato, as Socrates, says as much.
• The determinism is due to the
artificiality, not how reality works.

7. WORKING
TOWARD A
COMMON
GOAL? –
A DISUNITY
• Furthermore, the goal isn’t shared by
the group. Plato’s Socrates was very
specific about the three different
driving forces of the body and its
parallels to the makeup of society.
• Additionally, the largest two groups
(comprising the vast majority of the
population) can’t use reason to act
because that’s not a function of their
classes. They use spirit and appetite.
• Even the philosopher-king and the
guardians are nothing but a line of
dominoes.
• Hence, the artificiality of the society
• Different humans, by pre-selection, have
fundamentally different goals and are
led to believe that they are different
races.

8. THE
SUBJECTIVE
STATE
• All of this is in the name of virtue, and
wisdom, and The Good, etc.
• Wisdom comes down to, essentially,
keeping to yourself. Farmers farm.
Warriors fight.
• Socrates includes lawmaking with
things requiring talent and education.
• But governance is different. I can choose
not to buy a head of lettuce. The only
way I can reject law in the same way is
to leave a state.
• While Socrates prepares to drink the
hemlock, his supporters beg him to
leave. He rejects this, and recites a
version of the Social Contract theory.

9. PLATO’S
SOCIAL
CONTRACT
• Other commenters in this thread have
raised similar questions of the fairness
of escaping.
• Hume’s criticism of the Social Contract
theorists also applies to Socrates:
“Can we seriously say, that a poor
peasant or artisan has a free choice to
leave his country, when he knows no
foreign language or manners, and lives
from day to day, by the small wages
which he acquires? We may as well
assert, that a man, by remaining in a
vessel, freely consents to the dominion
of the master; though he was carried on
board while asleep, and must leap into
the ocean and perish, the moment he
leaves her.”

10. THE SERVANT
STATE
• Plato’s utopia is a system where all are
subservient to “reason”, the tool used
to achieve the “virtuous state”.
• But the state is only perfect in that it
relies on circular reasoning.
1. Why do we keep to what we do
best? So we can have a virtuous
state.
2. Why do we have a virtuous state?
So we can keep to what we do
best.
• So what’s the ultimate authority?
Nothing. Emptiness. Reason is just a
tool to use, not an object.

11. TO THOSE
WHO SAY
“THE GOOD”
IS THE
ULTIMATE
AUTHORITY
• Is the ultimate authority “The Good”,
something that’s hardly knowable?
• Nearly a religion, another thing that’s
been discussed in the thread.
– Socrates’ devotion to the concept
of The Good approaches that of a
religion, an argument toward
introducing false gods.
• But his is worse. Most religions have
recorded “divinely inspired” doctrine,
and can be held accountable through
that authority.
• Socrates makes the state even less
accountable by limiting access to this
realm to just a handful of people.
• Knowledge is also “a priori”. Can’t
blame Socrates for discovering truth,
right?

12. AUTHORITY
• I’m skeptical because the guy who is
pitching us The Good, The World of
Forms, and all the other stuff is telling
us to sell the noble lie.
• Goes back to our first rift:
– Socrates said he knew nothing
(with heavy sarcasm), but he
created his utopia. Would lend
credence that Plato considered
Socrates the model for the
philosopher-king. Otherwise, why
isn’t he tending to his own garden?
– Could be that Socrates sees himself
as a vessel or divine agent.
– Ironically, I seem to remember him
criticizing rhapsodes in Ion for the
same thing.

13. ION
• Socrates states that Ion’s talent as an
interpreter cannot be an art, a definable
body of knowledge or an ordered
system of skills.
• If you’re inspired, as with a divine sign,
it eliminates the possibility that you are
spreading knowledge.
• This may be Socrates’ answer and fits
with the Jesus analogy – a god is
speaking directly through him.

14. ABOUT
KNOWLEDGE
• Nemo stated that:
– “But if personal growth is the
attainment of wisdom and virtue,
then all the Platonic dialogues are
about personal growth.”
• This is correct, but only for guardians.
The vast majority of people are to be
guided toward steering with their
appetite. Once you falter in your
training, your education ends.
• The rest of humanity amounts to little
more than cattle.

15. FINAL
COMMENT
• Nemo’s final comment regarding the US
Constitution is important, because it
illustrates Socrates’ feeling that popular
opinion is exclusive from reason.
• Liberal society is founded on the
premise that popular opinion and
reason are not mutually exclusive.
• Alexander Hamilton, in Federalist #1,
asks, “whether societies of men are
really capable or not of establishing
good government from reflection and
choice.”