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HOW TO BUILD A MODEL TO PREDICT REIMBURSEMENT
DECISIONS BY MAJOR HTA/CER AGENCIES
Kermit Daniel, PhD – Chief Analytics Officer, Context Matters, Inc.
December 2013

Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
BUILDING A PREDICTIVE MODEL OF HTA
BEHAVIOR
• Why build a model?
• Can we build a model?
• How do we build a model?
• How will we know if we built a good model?

Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

2
WHY BUILD A MODEL?
A GOOD MODEL WILL

• Improve predictions
• Disentangle multiple influences
• Provide actionable guidance for how to
increase the likelihood of a positive
reimbursement decision

Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

3
WHY BUILD A MODEL?
A MODEL IS

• Useful simplification
• Mathematical: Y = Xβ + ε
Y: Probability of a positive recommendation
X: Observable influences of
recommendations
β: Parameters we will estimate
ε: Effect of influences we don’t observe
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

4
CAN WE BUILD A MODEL?
WHAT HAS TO BE TRUE?

• Agencies behave in ways that can be
described by a simple model that we can
estimate
o Consistency - non-random, consistent behavior
• Through time
• Across therapeutic areas
• Across agencies
o Transparency – we can observe decision factors (or
good proxies)
Y = Xβ + ε
THIS EXPLAINS A LOT

THIS EXPLAINS A LITTLE
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

5
CONSISTENCY ACROSS AGENCIES

AGENCIES FREQUENTLY AGREE WHEN PRESENTED WITH THE SAME
DRUG/INDICATION TO REVIEW

FREQUENCY OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN AGENCY PAIRS
CADTH

HAS

NICE

PBAC

SMC

68%

78%

85%

76%

PBAC

63%

72%

85%

NICE

61%

65%

HAS

58%

Note: Reviews of 94 drugs reviewed by at least two agencies between January 2005 –
February 2013.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

6
CONSISTENCY BETWEEN DECISION AND ASSESSMENTS
THE CLINICAL AND/OR ECONOMIC ASSESSMENT AND THE REIMBURSEMENT
DECISION ARE USUALLY CONSISTENT

AGENCY PAIR

Same Clinical
Outcome

Different
Clinical
Assessment

PBAC:SMC

P value

Same
Economic
Outcome

Different
Economic
Assessment

0.05*

P value
0.00*

Agree on decision

27

4

20

7

Disagree on decision

5

4

1

8

CADTH:PBAC

0.00*

0.14

Agree on decision

16

4

11

8

Disagree on decision

2

11

3

9

SMC:HAS
Agree on decision

0.01*
32

9

4
9
Disagree on decision
Note: Reviews of 94 drugs reviewed by at least two agencies between January 2005 –
February 2013. Asterisk and shading indicates significance at 5% or better.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

7
TRANSPARENCY

WE OBSERVE A LOT ABOUT REVIEWS, INCLUDING . . .

DRUGS

CLINICAL STUDIES

SUBMISSIONS

• Chemical type
• Indications
• Regulatory history
• Orphan status

• Number, dates
• Design, e.g., goal,
comparators, size,
subpopulations,
length
• HTA assessment

• Number
• Professional,
patient, other group
support

AGENCIES

ECONOMIC MODELS

CONCLUSIONS

• Identity
• Region
• Agency-specific
factors, e.g.,
additional benefit

• Manufacturer
comparators &
assumptions
• Agency model
• HTA assessment

• Recommendation
• Restrictions
• Factors discussed,
e.g., study
limitations, PRO
use

Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

8
HOW DO WE BUILD A MODEL?
HOW DO WE DECIDE WHAT DATA TO
INCLUDE?
• Predict outcomes that matter
• Capture implications of agency objectives
and constraints
• Incorporate what we observe about agency
behavior – but this is dangerous!

Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

9
PREDICT OUTCOMES THAT MATTER
POSITIVE DECISIONS OFTEN ADD RESTRICTIONS

Oncology

NICE

Non-Oncology

55%

54%
46%

45%

Positive Decision Not More Restrictive
Positive Decision More Restrictive
Note: Based on 150 NICE reviews of 72 drugs for 34 diseases between January 2007 –
August 2013.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

10
CAPTURE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT WE
OBSERVE ABOUT AGENCY BEHAVIOR

PRIMARY OUTCOMES THAT ARE PROs ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MENTIONED IN
THE DECISION RATIONALE
Neurology and Respiratory Indications

Note: Based on a Chi-squared test, the difference between the observed frequencies and the
expected frequencies were statistically significant at the .01 level. Data span 2005 – April 2013.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

11
THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH
RANDOM VARIABLES

Correlation
with Y
X1
X2
X3
X4
X5
X6
X7
X8
X9
X10
X11
X12
X13
X14
X15
X16
X17
X18
X19

-0.35
-0.30
0.28
0.17
-0.23
0.20
-0.14
-0.01
0.07
0.22
-0.21
-0.07
-0.33
0.14
0.03
-0.02
0.28
-0.19
0.12

X20
X21
X22
X23
X24
X25
X26
X27
X28
X29
X30
X31
X32
X33
X34
X35
X36
X37
X38

0.09
0.21
-0.02
-0.22
0.19
0.38
0.15
-0.05
0.15
-0.39
-0.24
0.30
0.00
-0.20
-0.19
0.12
0.13
-0.27
-0.12

X39
X40
X41
X42
X43
X44
X45
X46
X47
X48
X49
X50
X51
X52
X53
X54
X55
X56
X57

-0.26
0.38
0.04
-0.41
-0.25
-0.32
-0.27
0.06
0.21
0.34
0.02
0.21
-0.36
0.22
-0.12
0.06
0.13
0.12
0.26

X58
X59
X60
X61
X62
X63
X64
X65
X66
X67
X68
X69
X70
X71
X72
X73
X74
X75
X76

Possible
Drivers
-0.31
-0.03
0.01
-0.23
-0.12
-0.27
0.21
0.03
0.10
-0.22
-0.36
-0.17
0.08
0.15
-0.52
-0.01
0.05
-0.04
0.10

X77
X78
X79
X80
X81
X82
X83
X84
X85
X86
X87
X88
X89
X90
X91
X92
X93
X94

-0.22
-0.03
-0.11
0.08
0.07
-0.20
0.01
-0.21
-0.23
-0.27
0.06
0.04
0.30
0.06
-0.20
0.09
0.11
0.42

X25
X29
X40
X42
X51
X68
X72
X94

Shading indicates correlation with Y is significant at 5%.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

12
THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH
WE APPEAR TO HAVE A POWERFUL PREDICTIVE MODEL
• All estimates
significant at better
than 5%
• Two are significant at
.1% or better
reg Y X72
X42

X25 X40

• Very unlikely to have
occurred by chance
(p=1/10,000)
• Explains 2/3 of the
variation in Y
X51;

Source |
SS
df
MS
-------------+-----------------------------Model | 1684.41859
5 336.883717
Residual | 909.007507
24 37.8753128
-------------+-----------------------------Total | 2593.42609
29 89.4284859

Number of obs
F( 5,
24)
Prob > F
R-squared
Adj R-squared
Root MSE

=
=
=
=
=
=

30
8.89
0.0001
0.6495
0.5765
6.1543

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Y |
Coef.
Std. Err.
t
P>|t|
[95% Conf. Interval]
-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------X72 | -1.654714
.5923167
-2.79
0.010
-2.877196
-.4322327
X42 | -1.369594
.5741604
-2.39
0.025
-2.554603
-.1845855
X25 |
1.435235
.6360141
2.26
0.033
.1225669
2.747904
X40 |
1.329745
.5173819
2.57
0.017
.2619215
2.397569
X51 | -1.138341
.5299355
-2.15
0.042
-2.232074
-.044608
_cons |
677.9564
239.1864
2.83
0.009
184.3
1171.613

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

13
THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH
WE APPEAR TO HAVE A POWERFUL PREDICTIVE MODEL

45°
(predicted = actual)

Actual vs. Predicted
60
50

R2 = .65

40
Predicted 30
20
10
0
0

10

20

30

40

50

60

Actual
Source: Y and all Xs are independent random variables.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

14
THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH
THE MODEL IS USELESS: IT HAS NO PREDICTIVE VALUE

Out-of-Sample Prediction
60
50
40

Best
Prediction

Predicted 30
20

10
0
0

10

20

30

40

50

60

Actual
Source: Y and all Xs are independent random variables.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

15
HOW WILL WE KNOW IF WE BUILT A GOOD
MODEL?
HOW DO WE JUDGE OUR MODEL?

• Predicts well
• Predicts better than alternatives

Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

16
POSITIVE DECISIONS BY AGENCY
POSITIVE DECISION RATES (2007-2013)
Positive Decision Rate
HAS

95%

NICE

72%

CADTH

67%

SMC

67%

PBAC

62%

Note: Based on 213 reviews of about 40 therapeutic areas between 2005 – May 2013 reviewed
by NICE and at least one other major agency: SMC, PBAC, HAS, and CADTH.
Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

17
HOW WILL WE KNOW IF WE BUILT A GOOD
MODEL?
HOW DO WE JUDGE OUR MODEL?

• Predicts well
• Predicts better than alternatives
• Provides actionable guidance for how to increase the
likelihood of a positive reimbursement decision

Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED

18

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How to Build a Model to Predict Major Reimbursement Decisions by Major HTA / CER Agencies

  • 1. HOW TO BUILD A MODEL TO PREDICT REIMBURSEMENT DECISIONS BY MAJOR HTA/CER AGENCIES Kermit Daniel, PhD – Chief Analytics Officer, Context Matters, Inc. December 2013 Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
  • 2. BUILDING A PREDICTIVE MODEL OF HTA BEHAVIOR • Why build a model? • Can we build a model? • How do we build a model? • How will we know if we built a good model? Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 2
  • 3. WHY BUILD A MODEL? A GOOD MODEL WILL • Improve predictions • Disentangle multiple influences • Provide actionable guidance for how to increase the likelihood of a positive reimbursement decision Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 3
  • 4. WHY BUILD A MODEL? A MODEL IS • Useful simplification • Mathematical: Y = Xβ + ε Y: Probability of a positive recommendation X: Observable influences of recommendations β: Parameters we will estimate ε: Effect of influences we don’t observe Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 4
  • 5. CAN WE BUILD A MODEL? WHAT HAS TO BE TRUE? • Agencies behave in ways that can be described by a simple model that we can estimate o Consistency - non-random, consistent behavior • Through time • Across therapeutic areas • Across agencies o Transparency – we can observe decision factors (or good proxies) Y = Xβ + ε THIS EXPLAINS A LOT THIS EXPLAINS A LITTLE Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 5
  • 6. CONSISTENCY ACROSS AGENCIES AGENCIES FREQUENTLY AGREE WHEN PRESENTED WITH THE SAME DRUG/INDICATION TO REVIEW FREQUENCY OF AGREEMENT BETWEEN AGENCY PAIRS CADTH HAS NICE PBAC SMC 68% 78% 85% 76% PBAC 63% 72% 85% NICE 61% 65% HAS 58% Note: Reviews of 94 drugs reviewed by at least two agencies between January 2005 – February 2013. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 6
  • 7. CONSISTENCY BETWEEN DECISION AND ASSESSMENTS THE CLINICAL AND/OR ECONOMIC ASSESSMENT AND THE REIMBURSEMENT DECISION ARE USUALLY CONSISTENT AGENCY PAIR Same Clinical Outcome Different Clinical Assessment PBAC:SMC P value Same Economic Outcome Different Economic Assessment 0.05* P value 0.00* Agree on decision 27 4 20 7 Disagree on decision 5 4 1 8 CADTH:PBAC 0.00* 0.14 Agree on decision 16 4 11 8 Disagree on decision 2 11 3 9 SMC:HAS Agree on decision 0.01* 32 9 4 9 Disagree on decision Note: Reviews of 94 drugs reviewed by at least two agencies between January 2005 – February 2013. Asterisk and shading indicates significance at 5% or better. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 7
  • 8. TRANSPARENCY WE OBSERVE A LOT ABOUT REVIEWS, INCLUDING . . . DRUGS CLINICAL STUDIES SUBMISSIONS • Chemical type • Indications • Regulatory history • Orphan status • Number, dates • Design, e.g., goal, comparators, size, subpopulations, length • HTA assessment • Number • Professional, patient, other group support AGENCIES ECONOMIC MODELS CONCLUSIONS • Identity • Region • Agency-specific factors, e.g., additional benefit • Manufacturer comparators & assumptions • Agency model • HTA assessment • Recommendation • Restrictions • Factors discussed, e.g., study limitations, PRO use Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 8
  • 9. HOW DO WE BUILD A MODEL? HOW DO WE DECIDE WHAT DATA TO INCLUDE? • Predict outcomes that matter • Capture implications of agency objectives and constraints • Incorporate what we observe about agency behavior – but this is dangerous! Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 9
  • 10. PREDICT OUTCOMES THAT MATTER POSITIVE DECISIONS OFTEN ADD RESTRICTIONS Oncology NICE Non-Oncology 55% 54% 46% 45% Positive Decision Not More Restrictive Positive Decision More Restrictive Note: Based on 150 NICE reviews of 72 drugs for 34 diseases between January 2007 – August 2013. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 10
  • 11. CAPTURE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT WE OBSERVE ABOUT AGENCY BEHAVIOR PRIMARY OUTCOMES THAT ARE PROs ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MENTIONED IN THE DECISION RATIONALE Neurology and Respiratory Indications Note: Based on a Chi-squared test, the difference between the observed frequencies and the expected frequencies were statistically significant at the .01 level. Data span 2005 – April 2013. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 11
  • 12. THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH RANDOM VARIABLES Correlation with Y X1 X2 X3 X4 X5 X6 X7 X8 X9 X10 X11 X12 X13 X14 X15 X16 X17 X18 X19 -0.35 -0.30 0.28 0.17 -0.23 0.20 -0.14 -0.01 0.07 0.22 -0.21 -0.07 -0.33 0.14 0.03 -0.02 0.28 -0.19 0.12 X20 X21 X22 X23 X24 X25 X26 X27 X28 X29 X30 X31 X32 X33 X34 X35 X36 X37 X38 0.09 0.21 -0.02 -0.22 0.19 0.38 0.15 -0.05 0.15 -0.39 -0.24 0.30 0.00 -0.20 -0.19 0.12 0.13 -0.27 -0.12 X39 X40 X41 X42 X43 X44 X45 X46 X47 X48 X49 X50 X51 X52 X53 X54 X55 X56 X57 -0.26 0.38 0.04 -0.41 -0.25 -0.32 -0.27 0.06 0.21 0.34 0.02 0.21 -0.36 0.22 -0.12 0.06 0.13 0.12 0.26 X58 X59 X60 X61 X62 X63 X64 X65 X66 X67 X68 X69 X70 X71 X72 X73 X74 X75 X76 Possible Drivers -0.31 -0.03 0.01 -0.23 -0.12 -0.27 0.21 0.03 0.10 -0.22 -0.36 -0.17 0.08 0.15 -0.52 -0.01 0.05 -0.04 0.10 X77 X78 X79 X80 X81 X82 X83 X84 X85 X86 X87 X88 X89 X90 X91 X92 X93 X94 -0.22 -0.03 -0.11 0.08 0.07 -0.20 0.01 -0.21 -0.23 -0.27 0.06 0.04 0.30 0.06 -0.20 0.09 0.11 0.42 X25 X29 X40 X42 X51 X68 X72 X94 Shading indicates correlation with Y is significant at 5%. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 12
  • 13. THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH WE APPEAR TO HAVE A POWERFUL PREDICTIVE MODEL • All estimates significant at better than 5% • Two are significant at .1% or better reg Y X72 X42 X25 X40 • Very unlikely to have occurred by chance (p=1/10,000) • Explains 2/3 of the variation in Y X51; Source | SS df MS -------------+-----------------------------Model | 1684.41859 5 336.883717 Residual | 909.007507 24 37.8753128 -------------+-----------------------------Total | 2593.42609 29 89.4284859 Number of obs F( 5, 24) Prob > F R-squared Adj R-squared Root MSE = = = = = = 30 8.89 0.0001 0.6495 0.5765 6.1543 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------Y | Coef. Std. Err. t P>|t| [95% Conf. Interval] -------------+---------------------------------------------------------------X72 | -1.654714 .5923167 -2.79 0.010 -2.877196 -.4322327 X42 | -1.369594 .5741604 -2.39 0.025 -2.554603 -.1845855 X25 | 1.435235 .6360141 2.26 0.033 .1225669 2.747904 X40 | 1.329745 .5173819 2.57 0.017 .2619215 2.397569 X51 | -1.138341 .5299355 -2.15 0.042 -2.232074 -.044608 _cons | 677.9564 239.1864 2.83 0.009 184.3 1171.613 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 13
  • 14. THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH WE APPEAR TO HAVE A POWERFUL PREDICTIVE MODEL 45° (predicted = actual) Actual vs. Predicted 60 50 R2 = .65 40 Predicted 30 20 10 0 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 Actual Source: Y and all Xs are independent random variables. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 14
  • 15. THE DANGER OF A “DATA MINING” APPROACH THE MODEL IS USELESS: IT HAS NO PREDICTIVE VALUE Out-of-Sample Prediction 60 50 40 Best Prediction Predicted 30 20 10 0 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 Actual Source: Y and all Xs are independent random variables. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 15
  • 16. HOW WILL WE KNOW IF WE BUILT A GOOD MODEL? HOW DO WE JUDGE OUR MODEL? • Predicts well • Predicts better than alternatives Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 16
  • 17. POSITIVE DECISIONS BY AGENCY POSITIVE DECISION RATES (2007-2013) Positive Decision Rate HAS 95% NICE 72% CADTH 67% SMC 67% PBAC 62% Note: Based on 213 reviews of about 40 therapeutic areas between 2005 – May 2013 reviewed by NICE and at least one other major agency: SMC, PBAC, HAS, and CADTH. Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 17
  • 18. HOW WILL WE KNOW IF WE BUILT A GOOD MODEL? HOW DO WE JUDGE OUR MODEL? • Predicts well • Predicts better than alternatives • Provides actionable guidance for how to increase the likelihood of a positive reimbursement decision Copyright © 2013 Context Matters, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 18

Notas do Editor

  1. I DON’T HAVE A MODEL TODAY, BUT WE ARE STARTING TO BUILD A MODEL, SO I WILL TALK ABOIUT HOW WE’RE GOING ABOUT BUILDING ONE. I’M GONG TO ORGANIZE THIS AROUND HOW WE ARE ANSWERING 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS. (NOT THE ONLY QEUSTIONS TO ASK, MAYBE NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT, BUT THEY ARE 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS0[WHYBUILD IS WHERE I CAN TALK ABOUT CONTEXT MATTERS?]
  2. I DON’T HAVE A MODEL TODAY, BUT WE ARE STARTING TO BUILD A MODEL, SO I WILL TALK ABOIUT HOW WE’RE GOING ABOUT BUILING ONE. I’M GONG TO ORGANIZE THIS AROUND HOW WE ARE ANSWERING 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS. (NOT THE ONLY QEUSTIONS TO ASK, MAYBE NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT, BUT THEY ARE 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS0[WHYBUILD IS WHERE I CAN TALK ABOUT CONTEXT MATTERS?]
  3. Agency agreement – main agencies
  4. Clinical assessment agreement, economic assessment agreement. NOTE for this presentation we did not have a joint table of agreement on the clinical AND economic in relationship to the decision.
  5. I DON’T HAVE A MODEL TODAY, BUT WE ARE STARTING TO BUILD A MODEL, SO I WILL TALK ABOIUT HOW WE’RE GOING ABOUT BUILING ONE. I’M GONG TO ORGANIZE THIS AROUND HOW WE ARE ANSWERING 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS. (NOT THE ONLY QEUSTIONS TO ASK, MAYBE NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT, BUT THEY ARE 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS0[WHYBUILD IS WHERE I CAN TALK ABOUT CONTEXT MATTERS?]
  6. I DON’T HAVE A MODEL TODAY, BUT WE ARE STARTING TO BUILD A MODEL, SO I WILL TALK ABOIUT HOW WE’RE GOING ABOUT BUILING ONE. I’M GONG TO ORGANIZE THIS AROUND HOW WE ARE ANSWERING 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS. (NOT THE ONLY QEUSTIONS TO ASK, MAYBE NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT, BUT THEY ARE 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS0[WHYBUILD IS WHERE I CAN TALK ABOUT CONTEXT MATTERS?]
  7. LESS SALEY
  8. LESS SALEY
  9. I DON’T HAVE A MODEL TODAY, BUT WE ARE STARTING TO BUILD A MODEL, SO I WILL TALK ABOIUT HOW WE’RE GOING ABOUT BUILING ONE. I’M GONG TO ORGANIZE THIS AROUND HOW WE ARE ANSWERING 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS. (NOT THE ONLY QEUSTIONS TO ASK, MAYBE NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT, BUT THEY ARE 4 IMPORTANT QUESTIONS0[WHYBUILD IS WHERE I CAN TALK ABOUT CONTEXT MATTERS?]
  10. Number of reports: 78, 15, 39,39,42 (top to bottom)