Implementing Lean Marketing with A Story of Sustaining Lean

Business901 Podcast Transcription
Implementing Lean Marketing Systems
A Story of Sustaining Lean
Copyright Business901
Guest was Robert Camp
Sponsored by
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Transcription of Podcast
Joe Dager: Welcome everyone; this is Joe Dager, the host of
Business901 podcast. With me, today is Robert Camp.
Robert has spent twenty years of his career working
with the likes of Mobil and Lockheed Martin. Through
his career, he has performed roles and drawn heavily
on his increasing body of Lean knowledge and
experience. He is a Board Member of the Association
for Manufacturing Excellent as most of us know as AME
and the author of Go and See: A Journey About
Getting To Lean and most recently, Sustainable
Lean: The Story of a Cultural Transformation.
Robert, I would like to welcome you and start out by
asking you; “What prompted you to write your latest
book”?
Robert Camp: Thanks Joe. It's good to be on your show. It's
a real honor. I spent five years consulting to outside
companies; most of my career has been spent
consulting to my own company being an internal
consultant. During my external consultant years, I
started keeping data and working with other
consultants, looked at the data related to how many
transformations we became involved with that actually
sustained or lasted longer than our presence there or
two years, thereafter. The data was not good. The
departamentive data was good, the message was not
good. The other consultants that I worked with had
about 84% failure rate. My experience, including both
private internal consulting as external consulting was in
the range of 85% to 90% failure rate. I began asking
myself the question: Why do transformations fail? This
book was written around the answer to that question.

Joe: You picked doing it as a fiction to tell the story. Why
did you pick a fiction rather than non-fiction?
Robert: It is interesting you asked. I spent a year and a half
writing this book as a text, and after completing the
book, I was editing it and realized, none of the target
audience was going to read this book. I was shooting
for executives, and they weren't going to spend their
time to learn what I was trying to say. I decided that it
was far more probable that they would read it as a
novel. I went back and in a week, and a half, re-wrote
the same information, this time as a novel.
Joe: You started this conversation out by talking about an
outside consultant and inside consultant. In the book,
you painted two different pictures of consultants in the
story itself. Could you explain both of them and why
one did not work and the other one did?
Robert: Certainly. An inside consultant is one that actually
works for the firm that is having them conduct the
transformation in their behalf. Roles that I held were
world class manufacturing leader and continuous
improvement manager. When I was working for a
hospital, it was performance improvement coach and
the difference is that I was working for someone, a
couple layers below the key decision makers in the
organization, and that is one of the key ways the
transformations fail and we can talk about that in-depth
in a second but let me answer the other half of your
question was what's an external consultant and what's
difference between what they do and the answer to
that is, an external consultant is hired, by the senior
leaders of an organization, to come in and help them

kick off a transformation. One works for the
organization and is depended upon them for a pay
check. The other one is hired externally to come in and
help, and there's usually a contract involved. The
parties agree on what the deliverables are and as long
as the consultant delivers as promised, the pay check
comes. As an internal consultant, it doesn't matter
what you deliver, there is no guarantee of future
employment.
Joe: From the organizational standpoint that wants to
institute Lean which one should I choose? Which do you
think is better?
Robert: Good question, Joe. Both work and yet the thing that
causes transformation to fail is a failure of leadership.
For many, they believed that all you have to do is bring
in a consultant, and you can hire them to come in and
work at your shop floor and get all the savings that
Lean is capable of and in fairness, those savings are, in
fact, there and you'll get them, no matter how you
approach Lean, whether it is as an internal or an
external consultant.
The problem is, they're unsustainable, unless,
leadership with the organization agrees that they're
going to change. I make a point of referencing that in
my book, early in the book, the protagonist, Jim, who
is a plant manager is talking to a consultant that he's
heard at a gathering, and he approaches him
afterwards. Jim approaches the consultant afterwards
and says: "I hired these external consultants to come
in and we did great. They did better than they even
promised me they would do. Then, I was pressured by
corporate to cut off the contract, and in the two years

since, things seemed to have drifted back to where
they had been." Frank, the external consultant, says to
him: "What you did wrong was you entrusted the
transformation to somebody else. Unless, you are
willing to lead it, it's not going to be sustainable". I
think, therein lies half of the answer that A is got to be
led by the leaders of the organization.
The second piece to that is by leading, they literally get
out front which means they need to understand Lean as
well as anybody else and they actually have to drive
the transformation. They can't hire somebody to come
in and do that for them.
Joe: I thought your description was excellent and that was
the point of the story. I think it is true in real life that
change is tough, and it normally takes some type of
catastrophic event to cause someone to want to
change. Is that what's needed to transform to Lean?
Robert: Joe, it is a beautiful set up question, thank you so
much. As you and I both know, we in the Lean
community refer to that as the burning platform which
means that you're forced out of the platform that
you've been comfortable on and now need to move to a
new place. There does need to be a burning platform.
In the case of Sustainable Lean, the burning platform is
that Jim is concerned for his own job. As he gets
thinking about it, as Frank coaches him, he realizes it is
not just him; it could be his entire plant. They could
close the plant, and so that becomes his burning
platform.
Joe: So, you do think that an important part of
implementing Lean is it has to be presented as a
burning platform?

Robert: Well, if not, then the leaders have to arrive at the place
where they see their competition employing Lean and
say, "If we don't do this, we're not going to be able to
compete in five years." It doesn't have to be an
immediate burning platform as was the case with Jim
who was worried about something happening in the
next year or so. It could be looking out over the
horizon and seeing that your competition continually
scoops you by getting the market fastest with new
products.
Joe: One of the other things that I want to ask about and
you mentioned it in your author's note. You condensed
the story and showed a shorter time frame than what
you should expect. We always create such an anxiety,
this catastrophic event that you talked about. Can Lean
be used for a turnaround?
Robert: Lean is absolutely a tool to be used as a turnaround. As
you know, in order for there to be a Lean
transformation, the second clause of the title of my
book needs to be invoked. There needs to be a cultural
transformation. You just can't go in and start using the
tools of Lean; Just in Time, Total Production
Manufacturing and using Kanban. Those things all work
and they will deliver results. They are not sustainable,
unless, you create a culture that looks for them to be
sustained and it continually looks to improve upon the
games it already made.
Joe: It's interesting you mentioned the tools, Kanban and
Five S. In your book, you talk about Hoshin Kanri and
strategic deployment. A lot of people look at Hoshin as
a mature tool. Can that be used right out of the blocks?

Can we start with strategic policy deployment or is that
after we know the other tools?
Robert: I often say to businesses that even if you start at the
shop floor using the tools of Lean, I won't work with
you; unless, you simultaneously, begin a Hoshin Kanri,
begin a strategic policy deployment. The reason for
that is that I can get you the gains you want. I can
grab you the savings that you want. We can improve
your on-time delivery to the point that you can beat
your competition. If the leadership is not willing to
continue to provide the support that got you those
gains, then they're unsustainable. If leadership all of a
sudden arrives at the conclusion that we're losing
money because we are investing too much effort into
getting to zero defects, then A) you will never get zero
defects and B) you are sending a message to the rest
of the organization that defect-free product is not
important to us. That's not a message you ever want to
send out, any more than you want to send out the
message that we don't care when we deliver the
product to our customers as long as we get it to them.
Neither are acceptable conditions. You need both and
the only way you can get that and sustain it is when
your leaders expect that of you and continue to pay to
get the advances that are necessary.
Joe: When I think about playing the catch ball, and taking it
through the organization. You adjust it; you go through
your objectives and strategies. I understand that, but
when an organization is not used to doing it. That's a
lot to put on, the other people's plate, the other leaders
or the other managers or middle managers. They have
a big learning curve, don't they? It just not the leaders
buying into it and doing it, the other people have a big

learning curve.
Robert: Joe, you are so right, and that, of course, is the point
behind Hoshin Kanri. I thank you for taking me back to
that. The whole point of the Hoshin Kanri is to identify
the critical goals that an organization has committed
themselves to achieve. I, typically, take my customers
back to the mission statement and get them to extract
from the mission statement those things that are
critical to them achieving their mission. Once we've
established that, we identify who within the leadership
organization is going to be held accountable for those
attainments. We're going to determine what are the
things that we're going to measure in order to ensure
that we are actually achieving that goal. So, we've now
got someone who's accountable, and they have a clear
goal that they are trying to achieve and they have on-
going measures that tell them how they are doing
against that goal. Those get cascaded down through
the entire organization from the vice-president to the
director, from the director to the manager, from the
manager to the supervisor, the supervisor to the lead
person and ultimately, down to the manufacturing line.
What I just laid out was within the manufacturing side
of the organization, but the same tools work in
accounting, work in procurement, work in quality and
not only do they work there, but as you know, Lean is
holistic, all the pieces have to work together, or you
have a one sided transformation. In order for a
manager or a supervisor to make this transformation,
the senior leaders need to begin a training program
that the senior leaders at least kick off, if not actually
give the training. So that the subordinate leaders
understand how important this initiative is to future

success.
Joe: When we play catch ball, it's not like we are changing
the strategies and the vision all the way down through
the organization. We're leaving people take control of
what they actually do to fulfill what we are trying to get
accomplished.
Robert: Spot on Joe. Spot on. That's exactly what occurs as
you've stated when I cascade these expectations down
through the organization; I am not expecting folks at
the bottom of the organization to achieve the master
goal by themselves. What I want them to achieve is the
piece for which they are responsible, and I think that's
the kernel inside your question is that we're not asking
them to boil the ocean. What we're asking them to do
is take control of their organization so as to achieve the
goal we've set for them. As you've indicated, the whole
role of catch ball is to throw the goal out there from
their supervisor, from their manager, from their
director, through the goal out and say, this is what I
want you to achieve, what are your thoughts on it? Can
you do it? If not, what can you do? Am I being
aggressive enough? Are you capable of doing better?
The ball gets tossed back and forth until both parties
agree: "Yes! This is doable, let's accept this as our
goal".
Joe: Can we start with a few pilots and form around a
particular value stream, for example, and institute Lean
that way or does it have to be or do we have to do an
all-in approach?
Robert: No, you do not have to do an all-in approach. The
leadership has to be all in. Absolutely, a pilot's work,

beta testing work and it's a great way to get people to
commit to Lean is to show them in a micro-causim
what's achievable and I love the word you used "value
stream" which is a continuous set of processes which
end up with the completion of a product or a group of
products. You could go into a value stream and have
that value stream manager responsible for
implementing Lean in their area. I might use a tool, like
a value stream map to identify where I need, as value
stream manager, to focus my Lean efforts? Do I have a
problem with machine up time? Do I have a problem
with defects in a particular operation? Is my set up
time too high at a given point in my operation? What
are the things that are deterring me from hitting my
goal? I would start using the tools of Lean to make my
goal.
Joe: We talk about leadership in Lean and the
implementation. What is needed to sustain Lean
through leadership changes?
Robert: That's the question that I think eluded many in our
country for at least four decades. It's not going to be
an easy answer to give. In short, they're going to have
to understand what Lean is about. They are actually
going to have to understand not just the tools, but as
you know Joe, they got to understand the philosophies,
the management that the business behind Lean. You
can't continue to practice business as usual and
complete a Lean transformation. Let me give an
example. Accounting is usually the easiest place to go
to point out where we have to change. If I continue to
believe that inventory is an asset, as most accountants
will tell you, what I am doing is setting myself up to fail
at a Lean transformation. Inventory is actually a

problem for me. I have to pay taxes on inventory. I
have to warehouse inventory. Anything that is in
inventory is subject to engineering changes that could
make it obsolete or at least make me have to pay to
refurbish it. What I want to do in a Lean culture is to
make something only when I've actually sold it which
means the moment I make it, it is really to move out
the door. If I take that new attitude than inventory,
actually, is a detriment to my organization. If I
consume a raw material before I am ready to process it
the whole way through my organization, then I can't
use that raw material for anything else. Moreover, it
becomes work in the process in which I have the full
value of the material, and now I've added labor to it,
and it's going to sit on my floor until such time as I'm
ready to begin the next process on it. Every time
material gets stopped, inventory gets stopped in the
process. It delays cash flow. I know I'm not telling you
anything you don't know. That's why we have to take a
different approach to accounting.
Joe: The accountants always seemed to be problem.
Robert: I didn't say that Joe.
Joe: I look at the fact that when we talk about Lean and
leadership changes, that the people that hire the
leaders, the board. Has to have a background in Lean
and that's since they're not hands on, not easy. Is
there an easy way for them to gain the knowledge of
Lean?
Robert: There is absolutely a way. I think, Joe, brilliant
question because it points to the underlying problem in
the failure of so many organization to transform

because the folks there behind the scene. The board,
the owners, if they aren't brought in, and then they
start having expectations that are not achievable until
the transformation is well on their way. Is there an
easy way for them to get that knowledge? Knowledge
by its nature requires someone: A) look for, and B)
then try to do something about it. As I say in my book
"You don't know what you don't know". Unless a board
president starts looking for what can make this work
and what would we have to do in order to actually
implement that, they're probably not going to look
upon Lean as a solution to their problem.
Joe: Lean is a pretty common place anymore or at least the
term. It is misunderstood outside of the Lean
community. Outside of the immediate Lean community,
it is still looked at as manufacturing or at least a waste
reduction methodology.
Robert: You know, I can't tell you how many organizations I
went into as an external consultant that the workers,
the moment the word "Lean" came out of our mouth,
starts hearing lay-offs. One of the first things we
started doing was to assure them. This isn't about lay-
offs. We wouldn't even work with a client who is
contemplating a lay-off and what we typically said prior
to going into a transformation, we told the client if
you're anticipating that you're going to need to have a
work force reduction, have it before you begin this
because if you don't, then what you're going to do is
you're going to kill Lean forever in your organization.
Joe: Since publishing you're book, what have you learned
from it?

Robert: Yours is an interesting question, I don't get asked it
very often, but you're so right that when you write a
book, you do learn from the actual writing and in
writing this book, it deepened my understanding of how
important leadership is.
Joe: What is the most satisfying about your own journey in
Lean? What have you, personally taken from Lean?
Robert: I think the thing as you know, my most recent position
was that of a vice-president of operation for a medical
supply company and in that role, I had the opportunity
to employ everything that I have taught others to
employ and in the course of doing so, watched it
worked and watched a transformation taking place not
just in terms of what we made or how well we made it.
I watched the transformation taking place in lives of
the people that work for me, and it was just a
wonderful thing to watch as people began to blossom
like flowers. They became less concerned about their
job, knowing that if they did the right things right, they
have no reason to worry about their jobs.
Joe: What's upcoming for you and the best way for someone
to contact you?
Robert: I am in the process of working to create my own
consultancy. I am working with the colleagues here in
the Phoenix area to develop a Lean consultancy here
and to begin reaching out to primarily small to mid-size
businesses. That's where the growth of the United
States has traditionally occurred and as I say in my
author's note at the end. As a graduate of the military
academy, I feel a profound responsibility to this
Country, and because of my field of expertise; I want

to give back as much as I can in that field. I believe
that by helping small and mid-size companies compete
globally, I'm going to be helping the US economy at
least as it exists in the State of Arizona. My email
address is rbc11spen@aol.com. My cellphone is 704-
798-6980.
Joe: You are active on LinkedIn and I think you offer some
great commentary on their occasionally. So, someone
can also contact you there?
Robert: Absolutely Joe. Thank you for pointing that out. As a
matter of fact, that's how you and I met and what a
lucky day for me.
Joe: I would like to thank you for the opportunity to do this
and this podcast will be available on Business901
iTunes store and the Business 901 blog site. Thank you
very much Robert.
Robert: Thank you, Joe.

Joseph T. Dager
Business901
Phone: 260-918-0438
Skype: Biz901
Fax: 260-818-2022
Email: jtdager@business901.com
Website: http://www.business901.com
Twitter: @business901
Joe Dager is president of Business901, a firm specializing in
bringing the continuous improvement process to the sales and
marketing arena. He takes his process thinking of over thirty
years in marketing within a wide variety of industries and applies
it through Lean Marketing and Lean Service Design.
Visit the Lean Marketing Lab: Being part of this community will
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Implementing Lean Marketing with A Story of Sustaining Lean

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