Salafi Creed Vs Sunni Creed Part 2

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Salafi Creed Vs Sunni Creed [aqida]

faqir #16

Posted 31 May 2009 - 10:48 PM

We say to him: What do you say concerning the mention of "several eyes" (a‘yun), the mention of
the "flank" (janb), the mention of the single "shin" (saq), and the mention of the "several hands"
(aydi)? If we take these literally then we must affirm a being that has one face with many eyes, a
Group: Marifah single side, many hands, and a single shin! What being on earth is possibly uglier? And if you take
Posts: 2,746
Joined: 07-October 05 the liberty of interpreting this and that to be dual or singular, then why does Allah not mention it,
Location:englaaaand nor the Prophet, nor the Salaf of the Community?
(Ibn Jahbal Al-Kilabi, The Refutation of Him (Ibn Taymiyya) who Attributes Direction to Allah (al-Raddu ‘ala Man Qala bil-Jiha),
Introduction by Shaykh Wahbi Sulayman Ghawji, translation and notes by Gibril Fouad Haddad [Aqsa Publications,
Birmingham UK 2008: http://www.aqsapublications.com], Chapter Seven. The Absurdity of His Literalism, pp. 221-223)

http://www.asharis.wordpress.com
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faqir #17

Posted 03 June 2009 - 08:12 PM

Salafis Say Allah has a Waist1 [Haqwu]
Many thanks to sidi Hatim for providing some information on this issue!
Group: Marifah
Posts: 2,746
Joined: 07-October 05 Awell known senior Salafi shaykh named Abdullah bin Aqeel says in his book "Tanbihat ala al-Akhta'a Al-'aqadiyyah fi Fath
Location:englaaaand Al-Bari" (Warnings about the Mistakes in Aqidah mentioned in Fath Al-Bari), 1/31, as a refutation of Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar who
made ta'wil of haqw the following:

Quote

‫ﻻ ﺣول وﻻ ﻗوة إﻻ ﺑﺎ !اﻟواﺟب اﻹﯾﻣﺎن ﺑﻣﺎ دل ﻋﻠﯾﮫ اﻟﺣدﯾث وإﻣراره ﻛﻣﺎ ﺟﺎء ﻋﻠﻰ ﺣﻘﯾﻘﺗﮫ ﻛﺑﺎﻗﻲ ﻧﺻوص اﻟﺻﻔﺎت، واﻹﯾﻣﺎن‬
‫ﺣ ﻘواً، ﻛﻣﺎ أن ﻟﮫ ﺳﻣﻌﺎ ً ووﺟﮭﺎ ً وﻗدﻣﺎ ً، ﻛل ذﻟك ﻋﻠﻰ اﻟﺣﻘﯾﻘﺔ اﻟﻼﺋﻘﺔ ﺑﺎ ﻋز وﺟل ﻣن ﻏﯾر ﺗﺣرﯾف وﻻ ﺗﻣﺛﯾل وﻻ ﺗﻛﯾﯾف وﻻ ﺗﻌطﯾل‬ ‫.ﺑﻣﻘﺗﺿﻰ اﻟﺣدﯾث أن‬
‫أﻣﺎ ﺗﻧزﯾﮫ ﷲ ﻋن اﻟﺟﺎرﺣﺔ ﻓﻛﻼم ﻣﺟﻣل ﻟم ﯾﺻ ﺢ ﻧﻔﯾﮫ ﻋن ﷲ وﻻ ﻋن رﺳول ﷲ ﺻﻠﻰ ﷲ ﻋﻠﯾﮫ وﺳﻠم، وﻋﻠﯾﮫ ﻓﻼ ﯾﺟوز‬
ً‫. ﻧ ﻔ ﯾﮫ وﻻ إ ﺛ ﺑﺎ ﺗﮫ ﺣﺗﻰ ﯾﺳﺗﻔﺻل ﻋن ﻣراد ﻗﺎﺋﻠﮫ، ﻷﻧﮫ ﯾﺣوي ﺣﻘﺎ ً وﺑﺎطﻼ‬
ُ
‫وﺗﻛﻠﱡف ﻛوﻧﮫ ﻣﺟﺎزاً واﺳﺗﻌﺎرة ﻣﻣﺎ ﯾﻔﺿﻲ إﻟﻰ اﻟﺗﻌطﯾل وﻧﻔﻲ اﻟﺻﻔﺎت اﻟﺛﺎﺑﺗﺔ ﻋز وﺟل. واﻟواﺟب إﺛﺑﺎت اﻟﺻﻔﺎت ﻋﻠﻰ اﻟوﺟﮫ اﻟﻼﺋق ﺑﺎ ﻣن ﻏﯾر ﺗﻛﯾﯾف وﻻ ﺗﻣﺛﯾل، وﻣن ﻏﯾر ﺗﺣرﯾف وﻻ‬
‫.ﺗﻌطﯾل، ﻛﻣﺎ ھو ﻗول أھل اﻟﺳﻧﺔ واﻟﺟﻣﺎﻋﺔ، وﷲ وﻟﻲ اﻟﺗوﻓﯾق‬

Notice how he clearly and explicitly states that "haqw" is an attribute of the Divine Essence, and that it is to be understood
literally! And notice how he responds to Ibn Hajar by saying that it is not permissible to negate that Allah swt has limbs or parts!

Another interesting fact is that the book that this qoute was taken from, was reviewed, edited and checked by some senior
Salafi scholars like Abdul Aziz bin Salih Al-Fawzan and Abdullah Ghunayman.

The Hanbali Imam, Ibn al-Jawzi explained [Kitab Akhbar as-Sifat p. 242, 243] the narration from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet
(’alayhis salam) said, “Allah created the creation and upon finishing, the Rahim (womb) got up and took hold of the waist of Ar-
Rahman (i.e. The Merciful - Allah ). Allah said to it, ‘What is wrong?’ The womb said, ‘I seek refuge with you from Al-Qatee’ah
(i.e. the one who severs the ties of the family). Allah said, ‘Would you be pleased if I bestow my favors on him who keeps your
ties, and withhold My favors from he who severs your ties? The womb responded, ‘Certainly Oh Lord!’ Allah said, “That is
granted!” Abu Hurayrah said, ‘If you want you can recite [the verse] ‘Would you then if given authority, do mischief in the land and

converted by Web2PDFConvert.com

cut the ties of kinship (arhaamukum)?’ [47:22]

This tradition may be construed in one of two ways. It may mean that God shows special regard for kinship (rahim); and so He
strengthens those who strengthen it, weakens those who weaken it, and sees to it that its rights are respected - in the same
way that one shows special regard for one's kinfold over those to whom one is not related by blood. Or it may mean that the
term rahim is derived from [the same root as] the name Rahman, as if to emphasise [rahim's] imporance by calling attention to
the derivation of the term. This latter interpretation is supported by a tradition in which 'Abd ar-Rahman b. 'Awf reports, on the
authority of the Prophet, that God said: "I am Rahman! I have created rahim and have dervived its name from mine. Hence
those who strenghtn it, I will strenthen them, and those who sever it, I will scatter them." In another tradition, not cited in the
canonical collections the following words are found: "Rahim is a branch (shajna) which is joined to the waist (haqw) of
Rahman." Avariant of this tradition reads: "When God created humankind, rahim stood up and seized the waist of Rahman
and said: 'This is the place of refuge from the severing [of kinship ties]'"

Since [the above] sayings contain figures of speech (amthal), whose meaning we have already explained, the reference to
(rahim's) clinging to the waist of Rahman also ought to be constured [metaphorically], viz., as a request for aid (istijara) and
protection (it'isam). This is born out by a tradition in the two Sahihs in which 'A'isha reports that the Prophet said: "Those who
strenghten me, God will strengthen them, and those who weaken me, God will weaken them.'" Abu Bakr al-Bayhaqi said: "The
waist (haqw) is equated with loin cloth (izar); hence the tradition [referring to rahim's attachment to God's waist] means that it is
attached to [or seeks the protection of] God's power ('izz)."

1 Elsewhere sidi Ibn Ahmad provided the following on the meaning of Haqwu:
Hans Wehr: Loin, Groin. Hans Wehr gives the expression: ‫ - ﺷدد ﺣﻘوﯾﮫ‬Shaddada Haqwaihi meaning “T Gird One’s Loins.” Gird means to tie a belt around.
o
Al-Qamoos by Dr. Roohi Balba’kee: Loin, Groin
E.W. Lane: The waist; synonym ‫ : ﺧﺻر‬the place where the waist-wrapper called ‫ إزار‬is bound; i.e., the flank; another synonym is called ‫ ﺧﺎﺻرة‬or ‫ ﻛﺷﺢ‬which is
composed of two parts collectively called ‫. ﺣﻘوان‬
Lisan-al-Arab
‫ﺣﻘﺎ: اﻟﺣﻘو: اﻟﻛﺷﺢ، وﻗﯾل: ﻣﻌﻘد اﻹزار، واﻟﺟﻣﻊ أﺣق وأﺣﻘﺎء وﺣﻘﻲ وﺣﻘﺎء، وﻓﻲ اﻟﺻﺣﺎح: اﻟﺣﻘو اﻟﺧﺻر وﻣﺷد اﻹزار ﻣن اﻟﺟﻧب. ﯾﻘﺎل: أﺧذت ﺑﺣﻘو ﻓﻼن. وﻓﻲ ﺣدﯾث ﺻﻠﺔ اﻟرﺣم ﻗﺎل: ﻗﺎﻣت اﻟرﺣم ﻓﺄﺧذت ﺑﺣﻘو اﻟﻌرش. ﻟﻣﺎ ﺟﻌل اﻟرﺣم‬
‫ﺷﺟﻧﺔ ﻣن اﻟرﺣﻣن اﺳﺗﻌﺎر ﻟﮭﺎ اﻻﺳﺗﻣﺳﺎك ﺑﮫ ﻛﻣﺎ ﯾﺳﺗﻣﺳك اﻟﻘرﯾب ﺑﻘرﯾﺑﮫ واﻟﻧﺳﯾب ﺑﻧﺳﯾﺑﮫ، واﻟﺣﻘو ﻓﯾﮫ ﻣﺟﺎز وﺗﻣﺛﯾل‬
Al-Haqw: The Waist. It was said that (it is) that which the Arab kilt (or the LOINcloth as some would have it) wraps around. Its plural forms are Ahqin, Ahqaa’,
Hiqiyy, and Hiqaa’. And in the Saheeh Narrations, the Haqw is the waist and the lateral aspects of the pelvic girdle upon which the Arab kilt is dawned. It is said: He
clung to the coattails of so-and-so (Literally: He took hold of the waist of fulaan). And in the hadith pertaining to the ties of the womb, it was said: The womb/kinship
came to pass and it took hold of the flank of The Throne. When God made the womb anxious (regarding the mercy) of The Most Merciful; He eased (that anxiety)
by willing that the womb/kinship be (forever) neigh onto Him, as He has willed that relatives and kinsman remain loyally bound to one another. Therefore, in this
circumstance, Haqw is to be understood upon its allegorical and metaphorical meanings.

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tru_Qur'an #18

Posted 04 June 2009 - 06:44 AM

Group: Advanced Members faqir, on Jun 1 2008, 08:41 AM, said:
Posts: 326
Joined: 29-June 08
Gender:Brother Bismillah.

Salafis On Allah possessing limits
Says Sh. Ibn Baz on his 'commentary' on al-`Aqida al-Tahawiyya:

Sh. bin Baz said:

‫ﻓﻣراده ﺑﺎﻟﺣدود ﯾﻌﻧﻲ اﻟﺗﻲ ﯾﻌﻠﻣﮭﺎ اﻟﺑﺷر، ﻓﮭو ﺳﺑﺣﺎﻧﮫ ﻻ ﯾﻌﻠم ﺣدوده إﻻ ھو ﺳﺑﺣﺎﻧﮫ‬

By hudood (limits) the author means such as known by humans since no one except Allah Almighty knows his limits.

see footnote 3: http://www.furqaan.c...muslimcreed.htm

This is, of course, in complete contradiction to what Imam Abu Ja'far al-Tahawi himself says:

38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all
created things are.

By the way, Abu Sa'id ad-Darimi, the author of al-Radd ala Bishr al-Marisi, said, as quoted by Sh. Ibn Taymiyah in Dar' at-Ta'arud without


rebuke (2/28-29):

Ibn Taymiyya said:

The section on the Hadd (limit) and the 'Arsh

Abu Sa'id said:

The opponent also claimed that Allah does not possess a Hadd (limit), Ghayah (restriction), or Nihayah (end). He said: And
this is the basis upon which Jahm (ibn Safwan) built his misguidnace and derived all of his errors. It has not reached us that
anyone besides Jahm in the world proceeded him with it. Someone who was discussing this with him (Jahm) said to him: I
have come to know your intent oh non-Arab. You intend that Allah is nothing, because all of the creation have known that
there is nothing that is called a "thing" except that it has a Hadd (limit), a Ghayah (restriction) and an attribute, and that what
has no limit, restriction or attribute is nothingness.

So that which is a "thing" must necessarily be described with attributes. Nothingness is described with no limit or restriction.
Your statement: He has no limit means that He is nothing.

Abu Sa'id said:

Allah Ta'ala has a limit that no one knows but Him and it is not allowed for anyone to imagine a limit to His limit in himself,
however, he is to beleive in the limit and relegate the knolwedge of that to Allah. His place (Makan) also has a limit and He is
upon His 'Arsh above the seven heavens- so these are two limits.

Sh. Ibn Taymiyya himself said in Muwaafaqat al-Manqul (2:29) (republished as Dar' Ta'aarud al-`Aqli wal-Naql (2:58-59):

Quote

There is agreement one and all among the Muslims and the disbelievers [sic] that Allah Most High is in the heaven and they
ascribed it to Him as a limit except al-Marrisi the misguided and his friends. Even little boys that have not reached puberty
know this: when a boy is sad he raises his hand to his Lord and calls unto Him in the Heaven and nowhere else. Everybody
knows of Allah and His place (makanih) better than the Jahmiyyah! [..]. All this and its like are corroborations and proofs for a
limit, and whoever does not admit it has committed disbelief in the Divine Revelation and has denied the verses of Allah!

So it is clear that they believe in a God with limits who has a place - contrary to ImamAbu Ja'far al-Tahawi and the rest of Ahl al-Sunnah!

Imam Bayhaqi[rahimahullah] says, in his book, Al-Asma' wa al-Sifat, Excerpts, English translation and notes by Dr. Gibril
Fouad Haddad, page #43, under section Allah's Establishment Over The Throne (Istawa'):

"The teacher Abu Bakr Ibn Furak also mentioned the above method if interpretation from one of our companions who said:"He
established Himself in the sense of elevated." Then he said that such elevation is not in the sense of distance, nor boundary,
nor place in which He is firmly fixed. Rather, he means by it what Allah meant when He said:<Have you taken security from
Him Who is in the heaven...> (67:16-17), that is, above it, together with the preclusion of limit (hadd) for Him and the fact that
He admits neither of being contained by a heavenly stratum nor of being encompassed by an earthly expanse by an earthly
expanse of space. Allah Almighty was described thus in the evidence transmitted, and so we do not dispute what the evidence
said. (100)

_____________________________________________________
(100). AS(p.410-411); ASH(2:308-309).Cf Imam Malik:"He is neither ascribed a limit nor likened with anything"(la yuhaddad wa
la yushabbah). Ibn al-'Arabi said after citing it in Ahkam al-Qur'an(4:1740): "This is a pinnacle of tawhid in which no Muslim
preceded Malik."

................................
AS=al-Kawthari ed.
ASH=al-Hashidi ed.

This post has been edited by tru_Qur'an: 04 June 2009 - 06:45 AM

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faqir #19


Salafis say Allah has a Literal Leg and Feet
Dr. Ahmad Hijazi Saqqa wrote


Group: Marifah
Posts: 2,746 Shaykh Ibn Ùthaymin reinforces his anthropomorphism by saying (Sharh p. 42):
Joined: 07-October 05
Location:englaaaand
Sh. al-Ùthaymin said:

"It is established that Allah Most High has feet (al-qadam thâbit lillâhi ta`âlâ), and Ahl al-Sunna have explained the leg and foot (al-rijl wa
al-qadam) as being literal according to what befits Allah (haqîqatan àlâ al-wajhi al-lâ'iq billâh); whereas the "People of Figurative
Interpretation" (Ahl al-Ta'wîl) have explained al-rijl as being the group which Allah will place in the Fire, and al-qadam as being those who
are sent forth (muqaddamîn) to the Fire... and I reject and return their explanation to them on the grounds that it contravenes the external
meaning of the words (mukhâlifun li zâhir al-lafz)."

Shaykh Buti mentioned that Bayhaqi related from al-Khattabi, after the latter cited the hadith of Anas ibn Malik narrated by
Bukhari and Muslim:The Gehenna will keep asking: is there more? until the Lord of Might places His qadam (lit. "foot") in it.
Then it will say: Enough! Enough! Then it will gather up its parts together. And there will still remain room in Paradise until Allah
gives rise to a creation which he will then place in the remainder of Paradise. After mentioning what has been said about
Allah's qadam and rijl (lit. "leg") through different chains of transmission Bayhaqi said:

Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi said: "It is likely that those who mentioned al-qadam and al-rijl without attributing it to Allah (i.e. by
saying: "Allah's qadam" etc.) did so because of their great fear, and to avoid misinterpretation in the matter. Abu Ùbayd used to
say used to say: "As for us we narrate those hadiths but we do not smear them with meanings." Abu Sulayman says: It is even
more relevant for us not to be forward in that from which those who have more knowledge, antiquity, and seniority than us
stood back.

However, the people of the time in which we live have joined two parties. The first [the Mu`tazila and Jahmiyya] altogether
disavow this kind of hadith and declares them forged to begin with, which implies their giving the lie to the scholars who have
narrated them, that is, the imams of our religion and the transmitters of the prophetic ways, and the intermediaries between us
and Allah's Messenger. The second party [the Mushabbiha] gives its assent to the narrations and appplies their outward
meanings literally in a way bordering anthropomorphism.

As for us we steer clear from both views, and accept neither as our school. It is therefore incumbent upon us to seek for these
hadiths, when they are cited and established as authentic from the perspectives of transmission and attribution, an
interpretation (ta'wil) extracted according to the known meanings of the foundations of the Religion and the schools of the
scholars, without rejecting the narrations to begin with, as long as their chains are acceptable and narrators trustworthy

[Al-Khattabi, Maàlim al-sanan àla sunan Abi Dawud (Hims ed.)5:95. Cited in al-Buti, al-Salafiyya marhalatun
zamaniyyatunmubarakatun la madhhabun islami (Damascus: dar al-fikr, 1408/1988) p. 140.]

Abu Sulaiman said: "The meaning of the qadam here is possibly a reference to those whom Allah has created of old or "sent
forth" for the Fire in order to complete the number of its inhabitants. Everything that is "sent forth" is a qadam, in the same way
that the verbal noun of demolishing (hadama) is a hadm or ruin, and that of seizing (qabada) is qabd or a seizure. Likewise
Allah said: "They have a sure foundation (qadam sidq) with their Lord" (10:2) with reference to the good works which they have
sent forth. This explanation has been transmitted to us from al-Hasan al-Basri.

It is supported by the Prophet's saying in the aforementioned hadith: "As for Paradise, Allah will create for it a special creation."
Both meanings (i.e. respectively pertaining to the Fire and Paradise) are in agreement with the sense that Paradise and
hellfire will be provided with an additional number of dwellers to complete their respective numbers, at which point they will be
full.

[al-Khattabi, Maàlim al-sunan (Hims ed.) 5:95.]

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faqir #20


IrfanibnIsmail, on Sep 18 2008, 08:48 AM, said:

Group: Marifah
Salafis say Allah has 'Fingers'
Posts: 2,746
Joined: 07-October 05 Muhammed Ibn Abdul Wahab an najdi, the founder of wahhabism said:
Location:englaaaand

Quote

The agreement between the Scripture of the Jews and Islam, in that they both confirm that Allah has Fingers, though they
are unlike our fingers and exactly how they are is unknown to us.


(ibn abdul wahab- kitab at tawhid_chapter 64- Translated by Sameh Strauch
Published by International Islamic Publishing House)

Why on earth anyone would mention as support Jews and Christians in such matters when they are known to be
anthropomorphists is beyond me!

al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani writes in Fath al-Bari quoting Ibn Daqiq Al-‘Id’s Al-‘Aqeedah:

‫: وﻗﺎل ِاْﺑن دﻗﯾق اْﻟﻌﯾد ﻓﻲ اْﻟﻌﻘﯾدة‬
َ َِ ِ ِ َِ َ ََ

‫َﺗﻘُول ﻓﻲ اﻟﺻﻔﺎت اْﻟﻣﺷﻛَﻠﺔ إِﱠﻧﮭﺎ ﺣق وﺻدق ﻋَﻠﻰ اْﻟﻣﻌَﻧﻰ اﻟ ِﱠذي أَرادهُ ﷲ , وﻣن َﺗﺄ ﱠَوَﻟﮭﺎ َﻧظرَﻧﺎ ﻓﺈِن ﻛﺎن َﺗﺄْوﯾﻠﮫ ﻗرﯾًﺑﺎ ﻋَﻠﻰ ﻣْﻘَﺗﺿﻰ ﻟِﺳﺎن اْﻟﻌرب َﻟم ُﻧْﻧﻛر ﻋَﻠْﯾﮫ , وإِن ﻛﺎن َﺑﻌﯾدا َﺗوﻗْﻔَﻧﺎ ﻋْﻧﮫ ورﺟﻌَﻧﺎ‬
َْ َ َ ُ َ ‫َ َْ َ ْ َ َ ِ َِ َ ُ َ َ ََ ْ ِ َ ِ َ ْ َ َ ِ ً َﱠ‬ َْ َ ‫َ َ ﱠ‬ َْ َ ِْ َ ّ َ َ ُِْ َ‫ﱢ‬ ِ
ِ ‫ﱠ َ ﱠ ُ َ ِ ِ ِ ِْْ َ ْ ﱠ ِ َ ّ ﱠ ََ َ ﱠ‬ َ ِ ْ ‫ِْ ََ ِ َ َ َ َ ِ َ َْ َ ًِ َ ُ ً ِْ َ ُ ََ ََ َ ِ ِ َ َ َﱠ‬
‫إَِﻟﻰ اﻟﱠﺗﺻدﯾق ﻣﻊ اﻟﱠﺗْﻧزﯾﮫ . وﻣﺎ ﻛﺎن ﻣْﻧﮭﺎ ﻣﻌَﻧﺎهُ ظﺎھرا ﻣْﻔﮭوﻣﺎ ﻣن َﺗﺧﺎطب اْﻟﻌرب ﺣﻣْﻠَﻧﺎهُ ﻋَﻠْﯾﮫ ﻟ َِﻘ ْوﻟِﮫ " ﻋَﻠﻰ ﻣﺎ ﻓرطت ﻓﻲ ﺟْﻧب ﷲ " ﻓﺈِن اْﻟﻣراد ﺑﮫ ﻓﻲ ِاﺳﺗﻌﻣﺎﻟﮭم اﻟﺷﺎﺋﻊ ﺣق ﷲ ﻓﻼ َﯾَﺗوﻗف ﻓﻲ‬
ِ ْ ِ ُْ ُ‫ﱠ‬
( ‫ﺣﻣﻠﮫ ﻋَﻠْﯾﮫ , وﻛذا ﻗ ْوﻟﮫ " إِن ﻗْﻠب ِاْﺑن آدم َﺑْﯾن إِﺻَﺑﻌْﯾن ﻣن أَﺻﺎﺑﻊ اﻟرﺣﻣن " ﻓﺈِن اْﻟﻣراد ﺑﮫ إِرادة ﻗْﻠب ِاْﺑن آدم ﻣﺻرﻓﺔ ﺑﻘ ُْدرة ﷲ وﻣﺎ ُﯾوﻗﻌﮫ ﻓﯾﮫ , وﻛذا ﻗ ْوﻟﮫ َﺗﻌﺎَﻟﻰ ) ﻓﺄ ََﺗﻰ ﷲ ُﺑْﻧَﯾﺎَﻧﮭم ﻣن ا ََْﻟﻘواﻋد‬
َ َ َ ََ َ ِ ِ ُ ِ َ َ ‫َ ُ َ ﱠَ ِ َِ ﱠ‬ َ َ َ ِِ َُ ‫ْ َ ِ ِْ َ ِ ﱠَْ َ ﱠ‬ َ َ ‫ﱠ‬ َ ََ َ ِ َ ْ َ
ُ َ‫َﱠ َْ ﱠ‬ ِ َُ َ َ َ َ ْ ِ َ ‫َ ْ ِ ُ ُْ ْ ِ ﱠ َ ْ ِ ْ ِ ﱠ‬ ََ ْ ُ‫َ ْ َ ﱠ َ ﱠ‬
‫ﻣﻌَﻧﺎهُ ﺧرب ﷲ ُﺑْﻧَﯾﺎﻧﮭم , وﻗ ْوﻟﮫ ) إِﱠﻧﻣﺎ ُﻧطﻌﻣﻛم ﻟ َِوﺟﮫ ﷲ ( ﻣﻌَﻧﺎهُ ﻷَﺟل ﷲ , وﻗس ﻋَﻠﻰ ذﻟِك وھو َﺗْﻔﺻﯾل َﺑﺎﻟِﻎ ﻗل ﻣن َﺗَﯾﻘظ َﻟﮫ‬

Ibn Daqiq Al-‘Id said in Al-‘Aqeedah:

‘We say concerning the various attributes that they are real and true according to the meaning Allah wills for them. As for those
who interpret them, we look at their interpretation: if it is close to the rules of language in use among the Arabs we do not reject
it, and if it is far from them we relinquish it and return to believing while declaring transcendence. So whatever is clear and
understood from the speech of the Arabs then that is what we deem it to mean – for example Allah says ‘In that I neglected the
side (janb) of Allah’ (39:56) and it is common in their usage of this term (janb) that it means right (haqq) [so the verse would
mean ‘In that I neglected the right of Allah’] so we will not relinquish this understanding of the verse. Similarly the statement of
the Prophet‫‘ ﺻﻠﻰ ﷲ ﻋﻠﯾﮫ وﺳﻠم‬Verily, the hearts of all the sons of Adam are between the two fingers out of the fingers of the
Compassionate’ means the desires of the hearts of man swerves by the power (qudrah) of Allah. Likewise the statement of
Allah ‘So Allah came to their buildings from their foundations’ (16:26) means ‘Allah destroyed their buildings…’. Allah also
says ‘Truly we feed you only for the face of Allah’ (76:9) which means ‘for the sake of Allah’ and you can draw analogies from
these examples for other such verses.’

Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-Arabi said:

We have already clarified the use of the fingers and its wisdom in the context of the transformation effected by them.

What is turned around by the fingers is easier, lighter, and faster. Therefore, the Creator wanted to show the lightness of the
heavens, the earth, and all creation in comparison to His power, and to express the swiftness of the heart’s transformation by
placing it between the two fingers as well as its helplessness and insignificance. Both the heart and all creatures are as
nothing to the Merciful with respect to His power over them and their insignificance. It was also said that “between the two
fingers” is a figurative expression for the two dispositions. One disposition comes from the angel inspiring one to choose
goodness and confirm truth, the other coming from the devil inspiring one to choose evil and deny truth.

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tru_Qur'an #21

Posted 24 July 2009 - 03:58 AM

Group: Advanced Members faqir, on Jun 1 2008, 10:37 AM, said:
Posts: 326
Joined: 29-June 08
Gender:Brother Bismillah.

Salafis say al-Istawa' is Julus - sitting
Says Sh. al-Uthaimeen in Majmu Fatawa (vol. 1, no. 57) quoting Ibn al-Qayyim [provided by sh. Abul Hasan]:

Quote

‫وأﻣﺎ ﺗﻔﺳﯾره ﺑﺎﻟﺟﻠوس ﻓﻘد ﻧﻘل اﺑن اﻟﻘﯾم ﻓﻲ اﻟﺻواﻋق 3031/4 ﻋن ﺧﺎرﺟﺔ ﺑن ﻣﺻﻌب ﻓﻲ ﻗوﻟﮫ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ اﻟرﺣﻣن ﻋﻠﻰ اﻟﻌرش‬
‫اﺳﺗوى))1( ﻗوﻟﮫ: "وھل ﯾﻛون اﻻﺳﺗواء إﻻ اﻟﺟﻠوس". ا.ھـ. وﻗد ورد ذﻛر اﻟﺟﻠوس ﻓﻲ ﺣدﯾث أﺧرﺟﮫ اﻹﻣﺎم أﺣﻣد ﻋن اﺑن ﻋﺑﺎس‬
‫رﺿﻲ ﷲ ﻋﻧﮭﻣﺎ ﻣرﻓوﻋﺎ ً. وﷲ أﻋﻠم‬
.

rough translation:

with respect to the sitting, Ibn al-Qayyim has reported in As-Sawaaiq 1303/4 from Kharijah bin Mus'ab with respect to the
saying of Allah the Exalted :The ayah: Ar-Rahmanu Alal Arshi Istawa, "How can the ascension be anything other than
sitting?" and the mention of sitting has been reported in the Hadeeth from ImamAhmad from Ibn Abbas, may Allah be pleased
with them both, in a Marfu' fashion. And Allah Knows best


And, to quote sh. Abul Hasan:

Ibn al-Qayyim is talking about a non-existent narration in the Musnad of Ahmad [i.e. he has fabricated] through Kharija who is actually
matruk in hadith anyway!

This also reminded me of the book Kitab al-sunna attributed to Àbd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 290) by the pseudo-salafis, but
whose stand in relation to the Sunna and anthropomorphism can be judged by the following excerpts:

ُ
10 ‫ﺣدﺛﻧﻲ أﺣﻣد ﺑن ﺳﻌﯾد أﺑو ﺟﻌﻔر اﻟدارﻣﻲ ﻗﺎل ﺳﻣﻌت أﺑﻲ ﯾﻘول ﺳﻣﻌت ﺧﺎرﺟﺔ ﯾﻘول اﻟﺟﮭﻣﯾﺔ ﻛﻔﺎر ﺑﻠﻐوا ﻧﺳﺎءھم أﻧﮭن طواﻟق وأﻧﮭن ﻻ ﯾﺣﻠﻠن ﻻزواﺟﮭن ﻻ ﺗﻌودوا ﻣرﺿﺎھم وﻻ ﺗﺷﮭدوا‬
‫.ﺟﻧﺎﺋزھم ﺛم ﺗﻼ : ﴿طﮫ * ﻣﺎ أَﻧزْﻟَﻧﺎ ﻋَﻠْﯾك اْﻟﻘُرآن ﻟَِﺗﺷﻘﻰ * إِﻻﱠ َﺗذﻛرة ﻟﱢﻣن َﯾﺧﺷﻰ * َﺗﻧزﯾﻼً ﻣﻣن ﺧَﻠق اﻷَرض واﻟﺳﻣﺎوات اْﻟﻌَﻠﻰ * اﻟرﺣﻣن ﻋَﻠﻰ اْﻟﻌرش اﺳَﺗوى﴾ ، وھل ﯾﻛون اﻻﺳﺗواء اﻻ ﺑﺟﻠوس‬
َ ْ ِ َْ َ َُْ ‫ﱠ‬ ُ ِ َ َ‫ِ ﱢﱠْ َ َ ْ َ َ ﱠ‬ َ ْ َ ًَِْ َْ َ ْ َ َ َ َ

Quote

"Is istiwa other than by sitting (julus)?"
page 5, Kitab al-sunna (Cairo: al-Matbaà al-Salafiya, 1349/1930).

Quote

"He saw Him on a chair of gold carried by four angels: one in the form of a man, another in the form of a lion, another in that
of a bull, and another in that of an eagle, in a green garden, outside of which there was a golden dais."
Page 35, Kitab al-sunna (Cairo: al-Matbaà al-Salafiya, 1349/1930).

The contemporary salafi preacher Dr. Aidh al-Qarni also describes Allah as 'sitting' on His throne as can be seen in a recording of one
of his khutbas.

And finally, in his Tafsir named "an-Nahrul-Madd", the Grammarian Abu Hayyan al-'Andalusi reported about Ibn Taymiyah:

Quote

In his handwriting, a book of Ahmad Ibn Taymiyah, who was contemporary with us, which he called "Kitab-ul-‘Arsh", I
read: Allah sits on al-Kursi and has left a space for the Messenger of Allah to sit with Him.... (see scan)

As for us:

Ibn Àsakir in Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari (p. 150-151) as quoted here says:

The Mushabbiha and Hashwiyya said: Descent is the descent of His person (dhat) through movement (haraka) and displacement
(intiqal), and istiwa' is His sitting on the Throne and indwelling on top of it. Al-Ashàri took the middle road and said: Descent is one of His
attributes and istiwa' is one of His attributes and an action He did pertaining to the Throne, called istiwa'.

Imam al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma wa al-Sifat (as translated by Sh. Gibril):

The Preternal One (al-Qadîm) is thus elevated over His Throne but neither sitting on (qâ'id) nor standing on (qâ'im) nor in contact with
(mumâss), nor separate from (mubâyin) the Throne - meaning separate in His Es-sence in the sense of physical separation or distance.
For "contact" and its opposite "separation," "standing" and its opposite "sitting," are all the characteristics of bodies (ajsâm), whereas


"Allah is One, Everlasting, neither begetting nor begotten, and there is none like Him." (112:1-4) Therefore what is allowed for bodies is
impermissible for Him.

[more to be added here including translation of 1st quote above]

Imam 'Abd al-Rahman Ibn al-Jawzi [RH] says in his book Daf' Shubah al-Tashbih bi-Akaff al-Tanzih[engs trans by 'Abdullah
bin Hamid 'Ali, pg.103:

"...just as those who said about [God's saying]: Then He became established on the Throne (Qur'an 7:54) [to be] "He sat'' [on
the Throne]. We object to this, because it is not permissible with respect to the Creator, Exalted be He, that God be
characterized as sitting to the point that that particular object is in excess, since that is one of the qualities of composite
bodies."
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Murat Yazici #22

Posted 16 October 2009 - 10:54 AM

faqir, on 03 June 2008 - 12:04 AM, said:

Bismillah.
Group: Members
Posts: 234
Joined: 08-February 09 Salafis say the Vision of Allah is in a direction
Location:Istanbul

Dr. Muhammad Khalil Harras [described here as "a great Salafi Aalim and research scholar"] writes in his “Sharh Aqidah al-
Wasitiyyah,” page 73:

Quote

“The Mutazila deny the vision. This denial is based on refusing to accept Allah in any direction for it is necessary for a thing
being seen to be in the direction of the seer...”

ImamAbu Ja'far al-Tahawi says:

35. The Seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is true, without their vision being all-encompassing and without the manner of their
vision being known. As the Book of our Lord has expressed it: "Faces on that Day radiant, looking at their Lord." (al-Qiyama 75:22-3) The
explanation of this is as Allah knows and wills. Everything that has come down to us about this from the Messenger, may Allah bless him
and grant him peace, in authentic traditions, is as he said and means what he intended. We do not delve into that, trying to interpret it
according to our own opinions or letting our imaginations have free rein.

No one is safe in his religion unless he surrenders himself completely to Allah, the Exalted and Glorified and to His Messenger, may Allah
bless him and grant him peace, and leaves the knowledge of things that are ambiguous to the one who knows them.

And again:

38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all
created things are.

Let us also note this:
Imam Abu Hanîfa states: "The meeting (liqâ') of Allâhu ta'âlâ with the dwellers of Paradise is by visual sight
without modality, nor simile, nor direction" (Al-Wasiyya)

Liqâ Allah ta'âlâ li-ahl al-janna bil-ru'yati al-basariyya bilâ kayf wa-lâ tashbih wa-lâ jiha.
This post has been edited by Murat Yazici: 16 October 2009 - 12:25 PM


Murat Yazıcı
http://ahl-al-sunna.blogspot.com/
http://muratyazici.blogspot.com/ (In Turkish)
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faqir #23

Posted 02 December 2009 - 09:21 PM

Salafis Say Allah is Attributed With Malal [literally: Boredom]
See the following kalam of Sh. al-`Uthaymin:
Group: Marifah
Posts: 2,746 ‫وھذا اﻟﻣﻠل اﻟذي ﯾﻔﮭم ﻣن ظﺎھر اﻟﺣدﯾث أن ﷲ ﯾﺗﺻف ﺑﮫ ، ﻟﯾس ﻛﻣﻠﻠﻧﺎ ﻧﺣن ، ﻷن ﻣﻠﻠﻧﺎ ﻧﺣن ﻣﻠل ﺗﻌب وﻛﺳل ، وأﻣﺎ ﻣﻠل ﷲ ﻋز وﺟل ﻓﺈﻧﮫ ﺻﻔﺔ‬
Location:englaaaand ‫ﯾﺧﺗص ﺑﮫ ﺟل وﻋﻼ ، وﷲ ﺳﺑﺣﺎﻧﮫ وﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻻ ﯾﻠﺣﻘﮫ ﺗﻌب وﻻ ﯾﻠﺣﻘﮫ ﻛﺳل ، ﻗﺎل ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ : ) َوَﻟﻘْد ﺧَﻠْﻘَﻧﺎ اﻟﺳﻣﺎ َوات َوا َْﻷرض َوﻣﺎ َﺑْﯾَﻧﮭﻣﺎ ﻓﻲ ﺳﱠﺗﺔ أَﱠﯾﺎم َوﻣﺎ‬
َ ٍ ِ ِ ِ َُ َ َ ْ ِ َ‫ﱠ‬ َ َ
‫ﻣﺳَﻧﺎ ﻣن ﻟُﻐوب ( )ق:83( ھذه اﻟﺳﻣﺎوات اﻟﻌظﯾﻣﺔ واﻷرض وﻣﺎ ﺑﯾﻧﮭﻣﺎ ﺧﻠﻘﮭﺎ ﷲ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻓﻲ ﺳﺗﺔ أﯾﺎم : اﻷﺣد واﻻﺛﻧﯾن واﻟﺛﻼﺛﺎء واﻷرﺑﻌﺎء واﻟﺧﻣﯾس‬ ّ ٍ ُ ِْ ‫َ ﱠ‬
‫واﻟﺟﻣﻌﺔ ، ﻗﺎل ) َوﻣﺎ ﻣﺳَﻧﺎ ﻣن ﻟُﻐوب ( ﯾﻌﻧﻲ ﻣﺎ ﺗﻌﺑﻧﺎ ﺑﺧﻠﻘﮭﺎ ﻓﻲ ھذه اﻟﻣدة اﻟوﺟﯾزة ﻣﻊ ﻋظﻣﮭﺎ‬
ٍ ُ ِْ ‫َ َ ﱠ‬

Rough translation:

"This malal [literally: boredom], which is understood as an attribute of Allah from the literal/apparent meaning of the narration,
is not like our malal [literally: boredom], for our malal constitutes of tiredness and laziness. As for the malal of Allah, the
Powerful and Exalted, then that is a special Attribute of the Most Powerful and High, and Allah (swt) is neither ascribed with
tiredness nor laziness....."

And contrast this with the kalam of Ibn al-Jawzi who says in his Daf Shubah al-Tashbih p 92 English translation by Ustadh
Abdullah:

Quote

Bukhari and Muslim related in the two Sahihs that 'A'isha, may God be pleased with her, reproted that the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa
sallam] appeared while she was hosting a woman. He said, "Who is this? She said: "Fulana. She is asking me about her prayer." He said:
"Burden yourself with what you have the capacity to do! For God, Exalted be He, does not get bored until you get bored." In another
report, the wording is ,"God, Exalted by He, does not grow weary until you grow weary."

The scholars state, "The meaning of the hadith is God, Exalted be He, does not get bored even if you get bored as the poet said: 'Hudhayl
burned Mina with rags/Mischief does not get bored utnil they get bored."

The true meaning is it (mischief) does not get bored even if they get bored [of doing a certain thing]. Otherwise, Hudhayl would have
superiority over them (the people of Mina). And some people said, "Whoever gets bored of something [they] abandon it." So the meaning
is He does not abandon giving reward as long as they do not abandon doing good works.

As for "boredom" it means, "the dislike of something to consider it annoying for the soul to have an aversion towards it, and to grow
weary of it," which is impossible in His regard, Exalted be He. If this was possible it would mean to affirm for Him change and for created
things to take up residence in His being.

In Kitab Akhbar as-Sifat he also quotes Qadi Abu Ya'la as saying 'It is possible to attribute malal to God, though not the kind that
is a sa'aama'.

Further details in relation to this hadith can also be found from al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma' wal-Sifat, bab: ma jaa' fil-malaal where
al-Khattabi's views are also mentioned.

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tru_Qur'an #24

Posted 03 December 2009 - 01:29 AM

Group: Advanced Members faqir, on 02 December 2009 - 09:21 PM, said:
Posts: 326
Joined: 29-June 08
Gender:Brother Salafis Say Allah is Attributed With Malal [literally: Boredom]


‫وھذا اﻟﻣﻠل اﻟذي ﯾﻔﮭم ﻣن ظﺎھر اﻟﺣدﯾث أن ﷲ ﯾﺗﺻف ﺑﮫ ، ﻟﯾس ﻛﻣﻠﻠﻧﺎ ﻧﺣن ، ﻷن ﻣﻠﻠﻧﺎ ﻧﺣن ﻣﻠل ﺗﻌب وﻛﺳل ، وأﻣﺎ ﻣﻠل ﷲ ﻋز وﺟل ﻓﺈﻧﮫ ﺻﻔﺔ ﯾﺧﺗص ﺑﮫ ﺟل وﻋﻼ ، وﷲ ﺳﺑﺣﺎﻧﮫ وﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻻ‬
ّ ٍ ُ ْ ِ ‫ﱠ َ َ ِ َ َْ ْ َ َ َ ُ َ ِ ِ ِ ٍ َ َ َ ﱠ‬
‫ﯾﻠﺣﻘﮫ ﺗﻌب وﻻ ﯾﻠﺣﻘﮫ ﻛﺳل ، ﻗﺎل ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ : ) و ََﻟﻘد ﺧَﻠْﻘَﻧﺎ اﻟﺳﻣﺎوات واﻷرض وﻣﺎ َﺑْﯾَﻧﮭﻣﺎ ﻓﻲ ﺳﱠﺗﺔ أَﱠﯾﺎم وﻣﺎ ﻣﺳَﻧﺎ ﻣن ﻟُﻐوب ( )ق:83( ھذه اﻟﺳﻣﺎوات اﻟﻌظﯾﻣﺔ واﻷرض وﻣﺎ ﺑﯾﻧﮭﻣﺎ ﺧﻠﻘﮭﺎ ﷲ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻓﻲ‬
َ ْ َ
‫ﺳﺗﺔ أﯾﺎم : اﻷﺣد واﻻﺛﻧﯾن واﻟﺛﻼﺛﺎء واﻷرﺑﻌﺎء واﻟﺧﻣﯾس واﻟﺟﻣﻌﺔ ، ﻗﺎل )وﻣﺎ ﻣﺳَﻧﺎ ﻣن ﻟُﻐوب ( ﯾﻌﻧﻲ ﻣﺎ ﺗﻌﺑﻧﺎ ﺑﺧﻠﻘﮭﺎ ﻓﻲ ھذه اﻟﻣدة اﻟوﺟﯾزة ﻣﻊ ﻋظﻣﮭﺎ‬
ٍ ُ ِْ ‫ََ َ ﱠ‬

Rough translation:

"This malal [literally: boredom], which is understood as an attribute of Allah from the literal/apparent meaning of the narration, is not like
our malal [literally: boredom], for our malal constitutes of tiredness and laziness. As for the malal of Allah, the Powerful and Exalted,
then that is a special Attribute of the Most Powerful and High, and Allah (swt) is neither ascribed with tiredness nor laziness....."

What is the source of this?
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faqir #25


tru_Qur, on 03 December 2009 - 01:29 AM, said:

Group: Marifah faqir, on 02 December 2009 - 09:21 PM, said:
Posts: 2,746
Location:englaaaand Salafis Say Allah is Attributed With Malal [literally: Boredom]

‫وھذا اﻟﻣﻠل اﻟذي ﯾﻔﮭم ﻣن ظﺎھر اﻟﺣدﯾث أن ﷲ ﯾﺗﺻف ﺑﮫ ، ﻟﯾس ﻛﻣﻠﻠﻧﺎ ﻧﺣن ، ﻷن ﻣﻠﻠﻧﺎ ﻧﺣن ﻣﻠل ﺗﻌب وﻛﺳل ، وأﻣﺎ ﻣﻠل ﷲ ﻋز وﺟل ﻓﺈﻧﮫ ﺻﻔﺔ ﯾﺧﺗص ﺑﮫ ﺟل وﻋﻼ ، وﷲ‬
ّ ٍ ُ ْ ِ ‫ﱠ َ َ ِ َ َْ ْ َ َ َ ُ َ ِ ِ ِ ٍ َ َ َ ﱠ‬
‫ﺳﺑﺣﺎﻧﮫ وﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻻ ﯾﻠﺣﻘﮫ ﺗﻌب وﻻ ﯾﻠﺣﻘﮫ ﻛﺳل ، ﻗﺎل ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ : ) و ََﻟﻘد ﺧَﻠْﻘَﻧﺎ اﻟﺳﻣﺎوات واﻷرض وﻣﺎ َﺑْﯾَﻧﮭﻣﺎ ﻓﻲ ﺳﱠﺗﺔ أَﱠﯾﺎم وﻣﺎ ﻣﺳَﻧﺎ ﻣن ﻟُﻐوب ( )ق:83( ھذه اﻟﺳﻣﺎوات اﻟﻌظﯾﻣﺔ‬
َ ْ َ
‫واﻷرض وﻣﺎ ﺑﯾﻧﮭﻣﺎ ﺧﻠﻘﮭﺎ ﷲ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﻓﻲ ﺳﺗﺔ أﯾﺎم : اﻷﺣد واﻻﺛﻧﯾن واﻟﺛﻼﺛﺎء واﻷرﺑﻌﺎء واﻟﺧﻣﯾس واﻟﺟﻣﻌﺔ ، ﻗﺎل )وﻣﺎ ﻣﺳَﻧﺎ ﻣن ﻟُﻐوب ( ﯾﻌﻧﻲ ﻣﺎ ﺗﻌﺑﻧﺎ ﺑﺧﻠﻘﮭﺎ ﻓﻲ ھذه اﻟﻣدة‬
ٍ ُ ِْ ‫ََ َ ﱠ‬
‫اﻟوﺟﯾزة ﻣﻊ ﻋظﻣﮭﺎ‬

Rough translation:

"This malal [literally: boredom], which is understood as an attribute of Allah from the literal/apparent meaning of the narration,
is not like our malal [literally: boredom], for our malal constitutes of tiredness and laziness. As for the malal of Allah, the
Powerful and Exalted, then that is a special Attribute of the Most Powerful and High, and Allah (swt) is neither ascribed with
tiredness nor laziness....."

What is the source of this?

You can find it in his sharh of Riyadh al-Salihin. See: http://www.ibnothaim...cle_18024.shtml

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Ibn Ajibah #26


Group: Marifah-T Theword hatta [until] used in the hadith "Allah does not become bored 'hatta you become bored" does not nessesarily mean
Posts: 340 "until". In Arabic the word can also mean "heena" [when]. So, based on that the hadith can be translated as: "Allah does not
Joined: 09-February 07 become bored when you become bored." With this translation the hadith actually negates boredom.
Gender:Brother
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Murat Yazici #27




faqir, on 01 June 2008 - 11:37 AM, said:

As for us:
Group: Members
Posts: 234
Joined: 08-February 09 Ibn `Asakir in Tabyin Kadhib al-Muftari (p. 150-151) as quoted here says:
Location:Istanbul
The Mushabbiha and Hashwiyya said: Descent is the descent of His person (dhat) through movement (haraka) and displacement
(intiqal), and istiwa' is His sitting on the Throne and indwelling on top of it. Al-Ash`ari took the middle road and said: Descent is one of His
attributes and istiwa' is one of His attributes and an action He did pertaining to the Throne, called istiwa'.

Do you have any quotes from Imam Suyuti rahimahullah?
He (Jalaluddin al-Suyuti) says (after mentioning the nuzul hadith):

"Allahu ta'ala is exalted beyond movement (haraka) and displacement (intiqal)."
Source: Sharh al-sudur... (p. 392 of the Turkish translation, Kahraman Publishing, Istanbul, 1992)

Murat Yazıcı
http://ahl-al-sunna.blogspot.com/
http://muratyazici.blogspot.com/ (In Turkish)
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faqir #28

Posted 27 September 2010 - 10:14 AM

faqir, on 16 February 2009 - 12:34 AM, said:

Group: Marifah
Salafis say Allah performs Jogging / Trotting
Posts: 2,746
Joined: 07-October 05 An interesting quote I saw on-line - it would be useful if someone who has the book could confirm it:
Location:englaaaand
In Fatawa al-Aqida by Muhammad b. Salih b. Uthaimin, page 112, he says:

Quote

‫وأي ﻣﺎﻧﻊ ﯾﻣﻧﻊ ﻣن أن ﻧؤﻣن ﺑﺄن ﷲ ﺗﻌﺎﻟﻰ ﯾﺄﺗﻲ ھروﻟﺔ‬

"What could forbid us from believing that Allah performs jogging/trotting [harwala]?" [!!!]

Compare that to what is quoted from al-Khattabi:

Allah Almighty is not described by movement, since movement and stillness follow one after the other in the same entity: it is specifically
possible to attribute movement to whatever can be attributed stillness, and both of them are among the accidents of originated matter
(min a`rad al-hadath) and the attributes of creatures. Whereas Allah is exalted high above them, {There is nothing whatsoever like unto
Him.} (42:11)

Shaykh Gibril also said regarding the hadith: "If My servant comes near Me one hand-span I come near him one cubit. If he comes near
Me one cubit I come near him an arm's length. If he comes to Me walking, I come to him running." In al-Bukhari, Muslim and others.

Imam al-Tirmidhi said in his Sunan: "It is narrated from al-A`mash regarding the explanation of this hadith, 'Whosoever comes near Me
one cubit I come near him an arm's length,' that it means with forgiveness and mercy. Thus did some of the people of learning explain it.
They said: Its meaning is only that He says, 'If the servant draws near Me by obeying Me and doing what I commanded, I am very swift
to draw near him with My forgiveness and My mercy.'"

‫َوُﯾر َوى ﻋن ا َْﻷﻋﻣش ﻓﻲ َﺗْﻔﺳﯾر ھذا اْﻟﺣدﯾث ﻣن َﺗﻘرب ﻣﱢﻧﻲ‬
ِ َ ‫ِ ِ ََ َِ ِ َ ْ َﱠ‬ ِ ِ َْ َْ ْ
‫ﺷْﺑرا َﺗﻘرْﺑت ﻣْﻧﮫ ذراﻋﺎ‬
ً َِ ُ ِ ُ ‫ِ ً َﱠ‬
‫َﯾﻌﻧﻲ ﺑﺎْﻟﻣﻐﻔرة َواﻟرﺣﻣﺔ َوھﻛذا ﻓﺳر َﺑﻌض أَھل اْﻟﻌْﻠم‬
ِ ِ ِ ْ ُ ْ َ ‫ِْ ِ ََِِْ ﱠ ْ َ ِ َ ََ َ ﱠ‬
‫ھذا اْﻟﺣدﯾث ﻗﺎﻟُوا إِﱠﻧﻣﺎ‬
َ َ َ َِ ََ
‫ﻣﻌَﻧﺎهُ َﯾﻘُول إ َِذا َﺗﻘرب إَِﻟﻲ اْﻟﻌْﺑد ﺑطﺎﻋﺗﻲ َوﻣﺎ أَﻣرت‬
ُ َْ َ َِ َ ِ ُ َ ‫َﱠ َ ﱠ‬ ُ َْ
‫أ ُﺳرع إَِﻟْﯾﮫ ﺑﻣﻐﻔرﺗﻲ َورﺣﻣﺗﻲ‬
َِ ْ َ ََِِِْ ِ ُ ِ ْ


"Qatada said: 'Allah is fastest in forgiving.... What is meant is to express the swiftness of the response and forgiveness of Allah, as we
narrated from Qatada." Al-Bayhaqi, al-Asma' wal-Sifat (Kawthari ed. p. 285-286; Hashidi ed. 2:51-54).

"He did not mean by this hadith a coming-near in terms of distance, for such is impossible and inexistent. All he meant was the servant's
coming-near in terms of good works, and the coming-near of Allah in terms of answer and acceptance." Al-Baji, al-Muntaqa (1:357)

"The meaning of His coming closer to us by descending to the nearest heaven, or by His drawing-near a cubit and an arm's length, is
that He treats us with munificence (ikram) in the manner of the liege-lord that walks towards his servants and condescends to them,
turning to them with full attention (muqbilan `alayhim) and examining their needs one by one." Ibn `Abd al-Salam, al-Ishara ila al-Ijaz (p.
106).

"This hadith is among the narrations of the Divine Attributes and it is impossible take it in its outward meaning. We already spoke many
times about the hadiths on the Divine Attributes. Its meaning is, 'Whoever comes near Me with obedience to Me, I come near him with My
mercy and success, and help, and if he does more, I do more. If he comes walking and hastens to obey Me, I come running, that is, I pour
mercy over him and overtake him so that I do not make him need to walk much in order to attain his goal.' The message is that his reward
is many times over proportional to his coming near." Al-Nawawi, Sharh Sahih Muslim (17:3-4).

Someone pointed me in the direction of the following post made by a shi'a on their website. Apparently anyone who does not
agree with ibn Baz in believing that Allah literally jogs is on the practice of the Jahmis! We can add the names of some salafis
as well then to this list as I'm not sure all would agree with him!

“If My slave comes to Me walking, I go to him running”.

Sahih Al-Bukhari, vol. 9, Book 93, Number 627

Ibn Baz cites the hadith in his Fatawa and adds:

“Interpreting such hadith metaphorically and avoiding relying upon their literal meanings is the practice of the heretic
Jahmiyyah and Mu’taziliyyah”.

Fatawa Ibn Baz, vol. 5, p. 374

Al-Albani is very explicit on the point:

“Running is an attribute of Allah that we lack a base for denying”.

Fatawa Al-Albani, p. 506

Again, Ibn Baz adds:

Question: Is running an attribute of Allah?

Answer: Yes, as it has been shown in the holy divine hadith....."and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running. narrated
bukhari and muslim.

Ibn Baz, The Everlasting Garden for Scientific Research and Legal Opinions Vol.3 Page 196.

The heading of the subject where this fatwa was isued is called "Sifat al-harwala" , the attribute (Sifa) of running. The fatwa
issued here is number 6932

Book title: Fatawa al-laJna al-Da'ima Lilbuhuth al'ilmiyah wa al'ifta

Author: Ahmed bin Abd Alrazaq alDewish

Published in Riyadh by the Ministry of Scientific Research and Fatwa Management.

Date: 1996

Description: Acollection of fatwas by various prominent scholars.

The book in its entirety is available at http://www.islamport.com


When I get a chance I will try and check myself the fatawa from the reference cited.

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abulkhair #29

Posted 28 September 2010 - 05:18 PM

Group: Advanced Members Fatwa scan Vol 3. p 142: cover.JPG (321.28K)
Posts: 103 Number of downloads: 11 new 142.JPG (47.65K)
Joined: 09-March 08
Gender:Brother Number of downloads: 8

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faqir #30

Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:47 PM

shukran. I'm more interested in this one - if anyone can track it down would be useful:

Quote
Group: Marifah
Posts: 2,746
Joined: 07-October 05 Ibn Baz cites the hadith in his Fatawa and adds:
Location:englaaaand
“Interpreting such hadith metaphorically and avoiding relying upon their literal meanings is the practice of the heretic Jahmiyyah and
Mu’taziliyyah”.

Fatawa Ibn Baz, vol. 5, p. 374

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